The death of diesel cars

At a truck show a few years ago I was talking to a rep giving information on diesel lpg combined systems. The proposed saving over the life of the vehicle ( this would be counted as 3-5 years as in typical terms that would be the duration large firms would hold the truck) was either 7% or 13%. I had the leaflets but they were probably thrown out.

I’d be friendly with a man who was running this system on 6x2 tractor units. His view of the system, for his application anyway, is that over all costs would be the same, with little or no advantage. Main disadvantage was lower fuel tank capacity meaning the trucks had to be fuelled daily and had to return to base daily for gas fuelling.

Would be more advantageous on the likes of rigid trucks with long bodies where there is more free chassis space for fuel tanks and that spend more time in urban centres and always return to base.
 
nashmach said:
Now that you say it, it could have been gas powered :scratchhead:.but I thought I saw it only a few weeks back.

Definitely a Scania and I'm 95% sure it was owned by Harris Transport.
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That's the one. You might have thought so because the trailer with the big "Powered by natural gas" writing is still on the Athy to Dublin route but is now being pulled by a good old reliable V8.
 
A big issue with petrol cars is high mileage and reliability. My last Toyota diesel did 400000km without ever putting a spanner on it. Petrol or electric engines just don't do that.
 
muckymanor said:
A big issue with petrol cars is high mileage and reliability. My last Toyota diesel did 400000km without ever putting a spanner on it. Petrol or electric engines just don't do that.
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The last petrol car I had left me with 250k miles and running perfect. The only issue it had oil wise was the rear crank seal was leaking. The highest miler petrol I ever drove had just shy of 600k miles on it when it went in for it's 1st rebuild. In fairness it was a V8 in a chevy truck. A well maintained petrol engine will last for a long time and in general is more reliable then todays newest generation diesels. Cheaper to buy to and unless your doing a lot of driving it doesn't pay to buy one.
@Arthur I had industrial engines in mind when I came up with my username here :Thumbp2:
 
ptfarmer said:
Didn't the green twits in government not encourage diesel just a few years ago??
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Europe wide. Big focus on Co2, forgot about the other smelly stuff out of the tailpipe.
If they want people to switch to petrol, cut the excise on petrol. Instead of this upwards only method of taxation they are proposing on diesel.
 
There is something mighty weird going on in the whole transport sector at the moment. I simply don't accept what we read about diesels at face value, where did this hatred for diesels suddenly come from and why? What is always ignored is that the air in cities is actually getting cleaner due to the renewal of the diesel fleet with cleaner burning engines. As for electric and autonomous vehicles I could write all night on the lies, deception and plain dishonesty surrounding the push to get them on the road.
 
Can you get the low down torque from a petrol engine and still keep it frugal enough to compete with a diesel?

Any petrol cars I ever have driven need to be revved hard to pull which meant fuel economy suffered whereas the diesel was just a slight poke of the toe and away you go.

I would prefer the simplicity of a petrol engine over the diesel now that they have all the emissions shite bolted onto them but in real world motoring, for me anyway as I prefer big cars, I don't think the petrol has the economic edge yet.

That is why I stuck with diesel when we changed the car last October.
 
Toastfighter said:
There is something mighty weird going on in the whole transport sector at the moment. I simply don't accept what we read about diesels at face value, where did this hatred for diesels suddenly come from and why? What is always ignored is that the air in cities is actually getting cleaner due to the renewal of the diesel fleet with cleaner burning engines. As for electric and autonomous vehicles I could write all night on the lies, deception and plain dishonesty surrounding the push to get them on the road.
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There was a report on the BBC news a few months ago and they were interviewing a guy that writes for some motoring magazine and he was saying something similar about diesels, he was saying the governments should come out and put an end to the scaremongering, there is some ulterior motive behind it all, no doubt to line some ones pocket

If the governments are really that concerned about saving the environment would it not be better for them to give incentives for manufacturers to design cars, tractors, fridges, washing machines etc with a long life span in mind rather than a short life span where everything has to be recycled causing more pollution
 
If the governments are really that concerned about saving the environment would it not be better for them to give incentives for manufacturers to design cars, tractors, fridges, washing machines etc with a long life span in mind rather than a short life span where everything has to be recycled causing more pollution[/QUOTE]


Sustainability how are ye !
 
lough said:
There was a report on the BBC news a few months ago and they were interviewing a guy that writes for some motoring magazine and he was saying something similar about diesels, he was saying the governments should come out and put an end to the scaremongering, there is some ulterior motive behind it all, no doubt to line some ones pocket

If the governments are really that concerned about saving the environment would it not be better for them to give incentives for manufacturers to design cars, tractors, fridges, washing machines etc with a long life span in mind rather than a short life span where everything has to be recycled causing more pollution
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Time to think out of the box a little bit and maybe step back to take in a broader view.

The world's bigger corporations have up until recently been oil and auto companies . Their wealth has given them tremendous power and clout on a global scale, they have balance sheets that are bigger than the economies of many smaller countries and lobbying budgets that can skew the policies of the biggest countries on the planet.

But now there are some equally wealthy and powerful corporations on the block and they are the tech companies. They have probably gone as far as they can with the digital devices that we are familiar with, there is not a lot of growth left in social media, search engines and smartphones. So what do they do next with their billions? They look to expand into the territory of the older monopolies and they do that by deploying their favourite word - 'disruption'.

Let's be honest here. Disruption means the destruction of the present situation and the rearrangement of the profitable pieces to best suit those with the money to pick them up. It is not new or cool, it is simply the latest buzzword for ruthless corporate greed.

What we may be experiencing now is the clash of the new and old mega corps, and I get the impression that the old don't really know what's hit them. Governments are, I think, going along with it in the hope of also appearing cool and trendy, but if they think that ridding the oil companies off their backs will make life easier then they greatly underestimate how the tech companies will ride them. We see it happening with FB and Cambridge Analytics, that will only be a taste of what's to come if Big Tech gets its way.

The dissing of diesel is part of this, it breaks down our perceptions of what we believe about fueling our transport, and once that seed of uncertainty is sown then then we are become less willing to reject electric and autonomous vehicles, both of which will have huge negative effects on society, and both of which will be built and controlled by big tech - think Tesla. Autonomous vehicles (driverless cars) especially will grant corporations and governments tremendous power over society, for they will be plugged straight into where and when we move and so have absolute control over our travel arrangements.
 
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I have been foddering and bedding the few cattle in a shed, which they come and go from, with a 165 and it amazes me how we use to work with these older tractors in shed at mushrooms and potatoes years ago. They are violently smelly compared to modern tractors, I would leave the Deutz run all day in a shed, but the 165 could choke me in 5 minutes now.
 
gone said:
I have been foddering and bedding the few cattle in a shed, which they come and go from, with a 165 and it amazes me how we use to work with these older tractors in shed at mushrooms and potatoes years ago. They are violently smelly compared to modern tractors, I would leave the Deutz run all day in a shed, but the 165 could choke me in 5 minutes now.
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The chances are that the older tractors were a lot cleaner when they were younger, new injectors and an engine rebuild will probably clean yours up no end. But even so, it won't be as clean as an 'emissioned' engine. (as ugly words go that's pretty horrendous, but it's what's out there)
 
gone said:
I have been foddering and bedding the few cattle in a shed, which they come and go from, with a 165 and it amazes me how we use to work with these older tractors in shed at mushrooms and potatoes years ago. They are violently smelly compared to modern tractors, I would leave the Deutz run all day in a shed, but the 165 could choke me in 5 minutes now.
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I've often remarked that a few minutes in a shed with an old tractor would have your eyes streaming from the fumes while a newer tractor would barely leave a smell. The worst offender I have is also the smallest, a dexta. Fully rebuilt engine top to bottom. Including the injectors and you'd be suffocating after a few minutes indoors with it. People myself included often complain emissioned engines are thirstier then older unregulated ones but when you see and smell the difference and multiply that by billions of diesel engines it does fairly add up.
 
diesel power said:
I've often remarked that a few minutes in a shed with an old tractor would have your eyes streaming from the fumes while a newer tractor would barely leave a smell. The worst offender I have is also the smallest, a dexta. Fully rebuilt engine top to bottom. Including the injectors and you'd be suffocating after a few minutes indoors with it. People myself included often complain emissioned engines are thirstier then older unregulated ones but when you see and smell the difference and multiply that by billions of diesel engines it does fairly add up.
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The Perkins P3 engine, modified by Ford, used in the Dexta has it's origins back in the late forties or early fifties, and so its design is at least 65 years old. One of the modifications Ford made was to replace the inline pump with a rotary unit, whether that made matters better or worse I've no idea.
 
Toastfighter said:
There is something mighty weird going on in the whole transport sector at the moment. I simply don't accept what we read about diesels at face value, where did this hatred for diesels suddenly come from and why? What is always ignored is that the air in cities is actually getting cleaner due to the renewal of the diesel fleet with cleaner burning engines. As for electric and autonomous vehicles I could write all night on the lies, deception and plain dishonesty surrounding the push to get them on the road.
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In 2008 there was a big push for Diesel cars with lower road tax being offered as an incentive. There was a definite sustainable plan in place which was meant to ensure that diesel was a new and clean fuel. To put it into simple terms, it had been proposed that by 2020, 50% of the diesel that we buy from the pumps would be biodiesel. This never happened. Whether the big oil companies stuck their oar in or the government just sat back is just anyone's guess. I'd suspect both to be honest.

But the fact is that huge numbers of people bought into it. 2008 saw record car sales despite it being in the middle of a recession. We invested in, what we were told, was the future of cars in this country. 10 short years later, the goalposts have not only moved, but they were taken down and replaced with something totally different. It's very clear to see that the government have no strategy designed for this. It appears to me that it's just a ploy to increase car tax and tax on diesel which they lost out on since 2008. They want us to go to electric cars, but the fact is that if I went out and bought an electric car in the morning, I would not be able to drive it in the same way as I drive my diesel car. Charging facilities are few and far between. The charge that these cars hold would not do my daily commute.

What about a hybrid? When you analyse it, is it any cleaner than my diesel? The simple fact is that before it even reaches my door as a new car, the pollution caused in manufacturing 1 battery for a hybrid is greater than the total amount of pollution that my diesel car will cause over a life span of 10 years. Considering that you would probably need a new battery for the hybrid after 200,000km, it doesn't hold a candle to a diesel car.

So the irish government wants to meet EU emission regulations while at the same time making money. They have regulate the hell out of the car industry. they are starting to put the squeeze on people to move away from what they encouraged people to buy only 10 years ago, yet they have not got proper infrastructure in place for these vehicles. Nor do they care about extra pollution that happens in poorer countries just so long as they reach their targets.
 
muckymanor said:
What about a hybrid? When you analyse it, is it any cleaner than my diesel? The simple fact is that before it even reaches my door as a new car, the pollution caused in manufacturing 1 battery for a hybrid is greater than the total amount of pollution that my diesel car will cause over a life span of 10 years. Considering that you would probably need a new battery for the hybrid after 200,000km, it doesn't hold a candle to a diesel car.

So the irish government wants to meet EU emission regulations while at the same time making money. They have regulate the hell out of the car industry. they are starting to put the squeeze on people to move away from what they encouraged people to buy only 10 years ago, yet they have not got proper infrastructure in place for these vehicles. Nor do they care about extra pollution that happens in poorer countries just so long as they reach their targets.
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So the country that produces the batteries is responsible for it's emissions while the country using it is not? While the country that produces oil is not responsible for it's emissions while the country that uses it is? Another example of how the greater good is of little concern as long as we can export our emissions and reach our national targets.
 
Barrowsider said:
So the country that produces the batteries is responsible for it's emissions while the country using it is not? While the country that produces oil is not responsible for it's emissions while the country that uses it is? Another example of how the greater good is of little concern as long as we can export our emissions and reach our national targets.
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That's my point exactly.

truth is, if the EU wanted to, we could be growing a lot of the biofuel that would be required to produce diesel and petrol. You just have to look at Argentina who will grow 1.1 billion litres of biodiesel in 2018. They are no longer relying solely on food exports for to keep farmers in business. They have an massive amount of byproduct which can be used as animal feed. The USA are worried about Argentina's biofuel production ability impacting on their oil sales that they have resorted to producing false media reports about how environmentally damaging this biofuel production is, when in fact, it is extremely environmentally friendly.

Why can't the EU encourage the growth of biofuel instead of importing it from argentina? Because it would mean that farmers could choose not to grow food, but grow fuel instead. Food prices could rise. The big stick that they beat us with may not be as effective.
 
muckymanor said:
In 2008 there was a big push for Diesel cars with lower road tax being offered as an incentive. There was a definite sustainable plan in place which was meant to ensure that diesel was a new and clean fuel. To put it into simple terms, it had been proposed that by 2020, 50% of the diesel that we buy from the pumps would be biodiesel. This never happened. Whether the big oil companies stuck their oar in or the government just sat back is just anyone's guess. I'd suspect both to be honest.

But the fact is that huge numbers of people bought into it. 2008 saw record car sales despite it being in the middle of a recession. We invested in, what we were told, was the future of cars in this country. 10 short years later, the goalposts have not only moved, but they were taken down and replaced with something totally different. It's very clear to see that the government have no strategy designed for this. It appears to me that it's just a ploy to increase car tax and tax on diesel which they lost out on since 2008. They want us to go to electric cars, but the fact is that if I went out and bought an electric car in the morning, I would not be able to drive it in the same way as I drive my diesel car. Charging facilities are few and far between. The charge that these cars hold would not do my daily commute.

What about a hybrid? When you analyse it, is it any cleaner than my diesel? The simple fact is that before it even reaches my door as a new car, the pollution caused in manufacturing 1 battery for a hybrid is greater than the total amount of pollution that my diesel car will cause over a life span of 10 years. Considering that you would probably need a new battery for the hybrid after 200,000km, it doesn't hold a candle to a diesel car.

So the irish government wants to meet EU emission regulations while at the same time making money. They have regulate the hell out of the car industry. they are starting to put the squeeze on people to move away from what they encouraged people to buy only 10 years ago, yet they have not got proper infrastructure in place for these vehicles. Nor do they care about extra pollution that happens in poorer countries just so long as they reach their targets.
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A good number of points you raise there, a few quick ones to add myself.

- A hybrid, at the end of the day, is no more than a petrol/diesel car with a very big battery.
- The best batteries use Cobalt, there is simply not enough of this mineral to convert all vehicles to battery power globally.
- 50% biofuel mix may be workable in petrol, but not presently in diesel where the practical level is 7% in unmodified engines.
- On street charging involves cables hanging across pavements as a trip hazard.
- Electric Vehicles will require vehicle tracking to be taxed. Big privacy/data issue there.
- Electric vehicles are heavier and cause more road damage.
- We hear a lot about new technology, that technology also applies to engines and they are getting ever cleaner and more efficient, the eco-gap between battery and liquid fueled cars is closing all the time, if there ever was much of a one.
- Power from renewables may well prove not to be that eco friendly after all.
- Despite bribes and threats, only 2% of the UK car market is for electric vehicles.

It's a total mess and quite frankly I don't think governments (not just the Irish one) have a clue as to what they are doing. Brazil though, continues to use bio-ethanol. They seem to have got it right although there are land clearance issues involved with its production.
 
Do you think its to do with refinery output? ?
What ratio petrol/diesel out of a barrel of crude?
 
Are there any figures to show how much conventional diesel is used to grow and process bio fuels, when the talk was of growng beet to produce ethanol there was going to be a big fuel input from ploughing right through to the stage when it becomes ethanol in a storage tank and it still needs more fuel to transport it to the end user.
 
The mention of biodiesel above reminded me that when the John Deere 6000 series were introduced 25 odd years ago ,it was specifically mentioned in the brochure that they were suitable for operating on biodiesel.
A VW Golf TD we had from around the same era was sold as ready for biodiesel.

My 2016 Seat Leon TDI has dire warnings on the filler cap and owners manual NOT to use biodiesel......progress eh?
 
From 2012 I know, but an interesting observation all the same - “As of today, we estimate that the hamburger’s contribution of particulate matter to ambient atmosphere is twice that of all the on-road diesel vehicles,” New York Times Sept 2012.

As for where all this anti diesel stuff is coming from there is a suggestion that it's the EU trying to put the German car industry back in its box.
 
Toastfighter said:
From 2012 I know, but an interesting observation all the same - “As of today, we estimate that the hamburger’s contribution of particulate matter to ambient atmosphere is twice that of all the on-road diesel vehicles,” New York Times Sept 2012.

As for where all this anti diesel stuff is coming from there is a suggestion that it's the EU trying to put the German car industry back in its box.
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I though yeah, right, when i read that but surprisingly it's true, well, sort of. Here's the original article:

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/20...scourge-that-may-be-worse-than-diesel-trucks/

The quote is slightly out of context because it's talking about a single hamburger versus a single truck, it doesn't say what the over all emissions from cooking are compared to the overall emissions from diesel transport, i suspect the latter might be the bigger contribution over all.

It raises an interesting point though. where i live in a fairly rural area there's a massive amount of pollution from other non vehicle sources, mainly some twunt or other burning stuff they shouldn't, whether it be people burning gre wood on stoves or open fires or businesses burning plastic and old tyres, (there was a massive plume of black smoke going up from a farm a couple of miles away last weekend) On average there are two or three days in a week when you can smell smoke in the yard, often with the acrid stench of burning plastic as a bonus. it can't be good for you

going back to the subject in hand, i don't think the move against diesels is an EU plot to slap down the Germans, there is a genuine issue with particulate emissions, nevertheless there is still a place for diesel engines, it's just not in town centers.
 
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