The death of diesel cars

BasilSeal said:
I though yeah, right, when i read that but surprisingly it's true, well, sort of. Here's the original article:

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/20...scourge-that-may-be-worse-than-diesel-trucks/

The quote is slightly out of context because it's talking about a single hamburger versus a single truck, it doesn't say what the over all emissions from cooking are compared to the overall emissions from diesel transport, i suspect the latter might be the bigger contribution over all.

It raises an interesting point though. where i live in a fairly rural area there's a massive amount of pollution from other non vehicle sources, mainly some twunt or other burning stuff they shouldn't, whether it be people burning gre wood on stoves or open fires or businesses burning plastic and old tyres, (there was a massive plume of black smoke going up from a farm a couple of miles away last weekend) On average there are two or three days in a week when you can smell smoke in the yard, often with the acrid stench of burning plastic as a bonus. it can't be good for you

going back to the subject in hand, i don't think the move against diesels is an EU plot to slap down the Germans, there is a genuine issue with particulate emissions, nevertheless there is still a place for diesel engines, it's just not in town centers.
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The problem of particulates in city centres is rapidly declining as the chart in this article demonstrates in reference to London. If you follow the link to the data source the reduction over the last twenty years is quite remarkable. -

https://ourworldindata.org/london-air-pollution

So the battle is already being won without recourse to the nonsense that are battery cars. The EV supporters keep talking about 'diesels' as if they are all the same, they are not, technology has improved them tremendously, but this truth is ignored. Instead, they insist that technology only applies to batteries and some magic solution to the weight and range problem will be dropped from the sky tomorrow, but it's always tomorrow.

There is no doubt in mind that this sudden push against diesel vehicles is motivated more than the atmospheric soot levels in leafy London suburbs. The movement emerged, almost overnight, a couple of years ago and, to one who has been taking an interest in the development, it seems remarkably well coordinated and not unrelated to a similar effort to have autonomous vehicles foisted upon society without any sort of debate.

Electric vehicles, especially battery powered ones, are a huge step backwards. They have been around for as long as the car itself and sales now are wholly dependent upon subsidies and tax breaks, and they won't last forever. Humanity as a whole is simply not prepared to spend endless hours waithing for their car to be charged up, let alone trot forlornly around town looking for a vacant lamppost to plug into. Mark my words, should EV's be pushed upon us by government (a rather totalitarian concept in itself) there will be fights and arguments, tears and a general revolt against them. They are not even that green.

While on the subject of air pollution there is much talk of connectivity and so forth between cars. Electromagnetic radiation (EMR) is a type of air pollution in itself, and is known to be harmful, but we hear nothing about that, too much money involved in getting 5G up and running.
 
I was talking to a guy that has risen up through the ranks in an oil company that has 22000 forecourts in Europe and he said if people do not want fuel because their cars are charged at home or in work why would they need to go to their 22000 outlets .
I like the simplicity of electric cars but they are a long way from being suitable for me .
Hybrids in towns maybe.
There was a genius in Bagnalstown that made his own electric car I think he had it on the road in 1971 . He also had. Windmill but it was very small .
 
Toastfighter said:
The problem of particulates in city centres is rapidly declining as the chart in this article demonstrates in reference to London. If you follow the link to the data source the reduction over the last twenty years is quite remarkable. -
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It's almost ass if the measures taken to reduce pollution are working.
 
BasilSeal said:
It's almost ass if the measures taken to reduce pollution are working.
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Exactly so, and with only a tiny fraction of cars being electric. In fact, the proportion of cars running on diesel is likely to have increased during the last twenty years. So what does that tell us?
 
Bog Man said:
There was a genius in Bagnalstown that made his own electric car I think he had it on the road in 1971
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In the early 90's a mate of mine dabbled in car dealing and used to go to the car auction in stoke and buy vans, one week he came back with an electric Bedford CF van, one of ten made specially for the electric board, apparently, i had a drive of it, it was surprisingly good, would do 70, accelerated really well, don't know how long the battery would last it seemed like a thing you could have used for the right job
 
Toastfighter said:
Exactly so, and with only a tiny fraction of cars being electric. In fact, the proportion of cars running on diesel is likely to have increased during the last twenty years. So what does that tell us?
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That you don't really understand the statistics in your own link?

Just because pollution levels in London today are lower than Dehli, or than in 1900, doesn't mean they are low enough, these figures are relative.

Pollution levels in London regularly exceed legal limits set by the EU. and 9500 premature deaths are attributed to air pollution in London every year. It's not just the particulates, it the NO2, 50% of London's NO2 pollution comes from traffic and it is primarily emitted by diesel engines.

This year London breached the legal limits for air pollution in the first month, which is an improvement on last year where it took just 5 days.

Whether you like it or not, diesel engines are a big contributor to NO2 and particulate levels, and the push to get people to buy diesel cars because of their lower CO2 output has exacerbated the problem.
 
BasilSeal said:
That you don't really understand the statistics in your own link?

Just because pollution levels in London today are lower than Dehli, or than in 1900, doesn't mean they are low enough, these figures are relative.

Pollution levels in London regularly exceed legal limits set by the EU. and 9500 premature deaths are attributed to air pollution in London every year. It's not just the particulates, it the NO2, 50% of London's NO2 pollution comes from traffic and it is primarily emitted by diesel engines.

This year London breached the legal limits for air pollution in the first month, which is an improvement on last year where it took just 5 days.

Whether you like it or not, diesel engines are a big contributor to NO2 and particulate levels, and the push to get people to buy diesel cars because of their lower CO2 output has exacerbated the problem.
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But I do understand them, an unfortunate fact for those spinning the electric car hype. They are showing a continuing decline even though the proportion of diesel cars has increased. New Delhi or London in 1900 has nothing to do with it, which is why I suggested that you look at the actual figures from which the chart was created, a download that can be found by clicking on 'data' at the bottom of the graph. In 1996 the the figure was 26 mg per m3, that was down to 16mg per m3 in 2016, the latest year for which the data is given.

Diesels are becoming an awful lot cleaner and as the national fleet of cars is renewed over time so their contribution to the pollution levels will decrease, be it particulate or NO's. The data I refer to shows just that. You seem to be stuck with this idea that all diesel engines are the same, a totally false notion that is being exploited by various interested parties.

You might like to consider the question as to which will clean the air quickest, the present rate of diesel engine modification or an attempt to switch to all electric vehicles?

The constituents of diesel exhausts were known about when the push for diesels was started and now it is claimed to have been a mistake. Is the push for EV's any less of an error? What is being done to curb the other 50% of NO2 levels?
 
BasilSeal said:
In the early 90's a mate of mine dabbled in car dealing and used to go to the car auction in stoke and buy vans, one week he came back with an electric Bedford CF van, one of ten made specially for the electric board, apparently, i had a drive of it, it was surprisingly good, would do 70, accelerated really well, don't know how long the battery would last it seemed like a thing you could have used for the right job
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Indeed, a niche vehicle.
 
The linking of autonomous and electric cars is a red herring. The current leader in autonomous tech is an electric manufacturer, and the tech companies who all want in on the action are going to develop electric cars, it's not in their nature to go "backwards" but autonomous tech started in conventional manufacturers in smaller sub systems. They'll happily let tesla and google and co work out the kinks and establish the regulatory framework before simply adding it to conventional cars when the time is right.

I'm a petrolhead and I cannot for the life of me understand people's objections to electric cars. Horses for courses. A 1.6 diesel is a terrible choice of drivetrain for a family hatchback in an urban environment, the only reason they are so popular is tax incentives. electric makes total sense for people who do small milages especially in an urban setting. for people who do a little more the turbocharged petrol would probably be best and for those that need to drag weight over distances diesel is the man.


One of the most interesting applications of electric tech to me isnt cars at all, it's small vans. The company that makes london black cabs is about to launch a battery powered van with range extending engine (charges the batteries on long journeys) it's the perfect tool for so many companies who have berlingos or the like doing fixed routes every day, returning to a depot at night, the post office, couriers, gas service companies, people like that.



Diesel's not going to die, it's just going to step back to where it was 10 years ago, in the vehicles that needed it.
 
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Toastfighter said:
a download that can be found by clicking on 'data' at the bottom of the graph. In 1996 the the figure was 26 mg per m3, that was down to 16mg per m3 in 2016, the latest year for which the data is given.
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This is a relative figure, it's reduced as one might expect due to an ongoing renewal of older cars with lower emitting new ones, but it's still way too high.

Toastfighter said:
You seem to be stuck with this idea that all diesel engines are the same, a totally false notion that is being exploited by various interested parties.
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I don't think ti's me who's stuck with a false notion.

Toastfighter said:
You might like to consider the question as to which will clean the air quickest, the present rate of diesel engine modification or an attempt to switch to all electric vehicles?
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This isn't a zero sum game where diesel and electric are the only options, switching to petrol or LPG would help in the short term, also encouraging people to use public transport or to walk or cycle instead. (options which have additional benefits to public health).
 
JohnBoy said:
One of the most interesting applications of electric tech to me isnt cars at all, it's small vans. The company that makes london black cabs is about to launch a battery powered van with range extending engine (charges the batteries on long journeys) it's the perfect tool for so many companies who have berlingos or the like doing fixed routes every day, returning to a depot at night, the post office, couriers, gas service companies, people like that.
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Another potential advantage to more main stream use of electric cars will be their potential to be used as an energy sink for renewables, most cars spend the majority of their lives parked up in driveways or at people's work, when not in use they could be soaking up excess power generation and pumping it back to the grid at times of high demand.
 
JohnBoy said:
The linking of autonomous and electric cars is a red herring. The current leader in autonomous tech is an electric manufacturer, and the tech companies who all want in on the action are going to develop electric cars, it's not in their nature to go "backwards" but autonomous tech started in conventional manufacturers in smaller sub systems. They'll happily let tesla and google and co work out the kinks and establish the regulatory framework before simply adding it to conventional cars when the time is right.

I'm a petrolhead and I cannot for the life of me understand people's objections to electric cars. Horses for courses. A 1.6 diesel is a terrible choice of drivetrain for a family hatchback in an urban environment, the only reason they are so popular is tax incentives. electric makes total sense for people who do small milages especially in an urban setting. for people who do a little more the turbocharged petrol would probably be best and for those that need to drag weight over distances diesel is the man.


One of the most interesting applications of electric tech to me isnt cars at all, it's small vans. The company that makes london black cabs is about to launch a battery powered van with range extending engine (charges the batteries on long journeys) it's the perfect tool for so many companies who have berlingos or the like doing fixed routes every day, returning to a depot at night, the post office, couriers, gas service companies, people like that.



Diesel's not going to die, it's just going to step back to where it was 10 years ago, in the vehicles that needed it.
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Autonomous vehicles are nowhere near safe or ready for the road. They are being pushed hard to get them over the line before it is realised that they have not been tested properly. Indeed, the noises coming from the AV lobby confirm that, the four deaths that we know of are just part of the learning curve they tell us. I kid you not. The AV industry really is a shower of c****s. Pardon my French but there are few other words suitable for them.
 
BasilSeal said:
Another potential advantage to more main stream use of electric cars will be their potential to be used as an energy sink for renewables, most cars spend the majority of their lives parked up in driveways or at people's work, when not in use they could be soaking up excess power generation and pumping it back to the grid at times of high demand.
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You've been supping at the EV hype bottle, but its a bit like a cheap burger, feels good at the time but is pretty empty of anything nutritious. Other than the maniacal first adopters nobody is going to be the slightest bit interested in poncing about with bits of wire and apps and tariffs and all the rest of the nonsense so beloved of the EV fans who really are living on another planet.
 
BasilSeal said:
This is a relative figure, it's reduced as one might expect due to an ongoing renewal of older cars with lower emitting new ones, but it's still way too high.



I don't think ti's me who's stuck with a false notion.



This isn't a zero sum game where diesel and electric are the only options, switching to petrol or LPG would help in the short term, also encouraging people to use public transport or to walk or cycle instead. (options which have additional benefits to public health).
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So what is not 'way too high'?

Well I think it is.

It is being presented by the EV lobby in general as a zero sum game. I've no objection to people wanting electric cars just so long as it doesn't impinge upon the rest of us, but they do - Favoured parking areas, wires dangling across pavements, an excuse for road charging to be ushered in, subsidies and tax breaks for the new car buying classes, wars and environmental destruction over cobalt reserves and so on and on. They are nowhere near as benign as we are led to believe.
 
Looking back I've been pretty strong in my views on EV's and AV's, but, to be honest, we need to wake up to the hype and total BS that surrounds this sudden great movement to have them foisted upon us. Neither lobby will answer specific questions (and I've tried) nor will they really engage in any sort of debate. Instead, they keep throwing nonsensical hype and lies at us in the hope we don't notice the fact that beneath it all lies the same old corporate greed. It's not for our good that's for sure.
 
Tippcon said:
I met one of those on the road somewhere around Cashel yesterday, I hadn't a clue what it was. How did you find it, I presume it was an unimpressive test spin that put you off?? :whistle:
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I met one yesterday somewhere to , think it might have been urlingford , couldn’t see the color of it though as it was on the back of a recovery truck with a big cover over it with tesla on it
 
laoisfarmer said:
I met one yesterday somewhere to , think it might have been urlingford , couldn’t see the color of it though as it was on the back of a recovery truck with a big cover over it with tesla on it
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No wonder @Arthur isn't splashing the cash so, he busted it with his heavy boot. Maybe he collected the new trailer with it to see how it pulled.......
 
laoisfarmer said:
I met one yesterday somewhere to , think it might have been urlingford , couldn’t see the color of it though as it was on the back of a recovery truck with a big cover over it with tesla on it
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Tippcon said:
No wonder @Arthur isn't splashing the cash so, he busted it with his heavy boot. Maybe he collected the new trailer with it to see how it pulled.......
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It flattened the battery and toasted the wiring as soon as the hitch was put on it..
 
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