Brexit

6600 said:
You're thinking why cut spending to give a tax cut to the rich, that's classic left thinking. Maybe if you cut tax people wouldn't need all the government handouts? They might have some of their own money. Keeping taxes high and spending more and more only breeds inefficiency, if the HSE had double the budget they'd be double the mess.
Click to expand...
The HSE is a mismanaged disaster, there are however plenty of countries with nationalised healthcare systems out there that spend proportionally the same amount of money that run like clockwork.

You might be some class of accountant but I really don't think you have a basic grasp of economics. Austerity doesn't work and laissez faire doesn't work. By work I mean for the common man, not some lad with a professional job and an inherited business.


What form of governance are you championing?
 
Bot.exe said:
The HSE is a mismanaged disaster, there are however plenty of countries with nationalised healthcare systems out there that spend proportionally the same amount of money that run like clockwork.

You might be some class of accountant but I really don't think you have a basic grasp of economics. Austerity doesn't work and laissez faire doesn't work. By work I mean for the common man, not some lad with a professional job and an inherited business.


What form of governance are you championing?
Click to expand...
What is your solution so? Continue raising taxes and spending? Print more money when you can't tax anymore?
 
6600 said:
What is your solution so? Continue raising taxes and spending? Print more money when you can't tax anymore?
Click to expand...
My solution is this. Because I'm not that bright I would go out and look at the top ten health care systems in the world. Then make a five year plan to copy them. I have yet to see anyone bring out five or ten year plans to sort out these major problems. Closing wards and putting people on trollies doesn't make sense to me.
 
marco said:
My solution is this. Because I'm not that bright I would go out and look at the top ten health care systems in the world. Then make a five year plan to copy them. I have yet to see anyone bring out five or ten year plans to sort out these major problems. Closing wards and putting people on trollies doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

For the love of all that is sacred don't even contemplate letting them do that, they'd try and base their ideas on some system that would even make things worse. Around 2012 or so there was a Value for money review done on the Reserve Defence Forces and they said there would be a ball of money saved by implementing it, so they cut the organisation to the bone and imo destroyed it. They didn't consider to look at the Finnish model which would have been better suited to our situation, would take a lot of lads off the street who would be tempted into bad things and would have worked out cheaper as there would be less full time personnel. Instead our crowd kept recruiting to the permanent forces and worse still kept taking on cadets even though there always has been an over strength officer corps with a lot of them having no actual role. Jobs for the brandy swilling boys. If the Finnish model had been followed there would have been less pensions to pay out as time went on because of the reduction in the permanent force.
The post mentioning waste brought to mind a conversation with a man that is working on the site of the new childrens hospital and the massive overspend, he's involved in the rebar for the concrete work and he reckons there's way more steel ordered in than is required that is then skipped. The scrap crowd are having a ball of a time taking away perfectly good rebar to sell on, of course the supplier is laughing too. That's only one item, what else is being over ordered and not used????
 
marco said:
My solution is this. Because I'm not that bright I would go out and look at the top ten health care systems in the world. Then make a five year plan to copy them. I have yet to see anyone bring out five or ten year plans to sort out these major problems. Closing wards and putting people on trollies doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...
Cuba? How do you define a good health care system, is it numbers of people on trolleys or survival rates for serious illness? Our system isn't perfect but at least everyone has access to it, there are a lot of countries that would have nobody lying on a trolley because they wouldn't be able to afford a hospital visit and would die at home.
 
TAFKAT said:
Cuba? How do you define a good health care system, is it numbers of people on trolleys or survival rates for serious illness? Our system isn't perfect but at least everyone has access to it, there are a lot of countries that would have nobody lying on a trolley because they wouldn't be able to afford a hospital visit and would die at home.
Click to expand...
Italy, Canada and Germany for a start. All different but high quality.
Have chat with a few nurses and let them tell you about the mismanagement in the HSE. Especially ones that have worked abroad in countries with well organized healthcare systems.
 
Bot.exe said:
Italy, Canada and Germany for a start. All different but high quality.
Have chat with a few nurses and let them tell you about the mismanagement in the HSE. Especially ones that have worked abroad in countries with well organized healthcare systems.
Click to expand...
I know all about the mismanagement in the HSE, I'm just making the point that you don't judge a health service on the same efficiencies as a commercial industry. You could reduce the numbers of patients on trolleys very easily be denying half the population access to healthcare in the first place. More people would die but the figures would look great. I've heard plenty of people say over the years that Michael O'Leary should be brought in to run it, which to me would be a nightmare scenario.
 
TAFKAT said:
I know all about the mismanagement in the HSE, I'm just making the point that you don't judge a health service on the same efficiencies as a commercial industry. You could reduce the numbers of patients on trolleys very easily be denying half the population access to healthcare in the first place. More people would die but the figures would look great. I've heard plenty of people say over the years that Michael O'Leary should be brought in to run it, which to me would be a nightmare scenario.
Click to expand...
I agree, the same should be said for government in general. It is what makes privatisation of effective monopolies such a disaster.
 
TAFKAT said:
Cuba? How do you define a good health care system, is it numbers of people on trolleys or survival rates for serious illness? Our system isn't perfect but at least everyone has access to it, there are a lot of countries that would have nobody lying on a trolley because they wouldn't be able to afford a hospital visit and would die at home.
Click to expand...
The world health organization have a ratings system for each country. Id start there. I'm sure they are better placed to define what constitutes a good health care system than you or I.
 
marco said:
The world health organization have a ratings system for each country. Id start there. I'm sure they are better placed to define what constitutes a good health care system than you or I.
Click to expand...
What are the top 10 countries on the list out of curiosity, and where does Ireland rank?
 
The way I see it, the presence of Corbyn (not saying he’s a bad guy, just lacks charisma and is too far Left) is pushing more people towards the Tories and he therefore is catalyst for Brexit to happen.

I heard one commentator say that unless the Tories get a strong majority that the current deal is unlikely to go through?
 
CORK said:
The way I see it, the presence of Corbyn (not saying he’s a bad guy, just lacks charisma and is too far Left) is pushing more people towards the Tories and he therefore is catalyst for Brexit to happen.

I heard one commentator say that unless the Tories get a strong majority that the current deal is unlikely to go through?
Click to expand...

The two of them could equally lead to more voter apathy and a low turnout I would have thought.

On your last comment, It's probably fair in case of backbenchers who would vote against the deal but there were only 22 or so of those previously.
 
nashmach said:
The two of them could equally lead to more voter apathy and a low turnout I would have thought.

On your last comment, It's probably fair in case of backbenchers who would vote against the deal but there were only 22 or so of those previously.
Click to expand...

anecdotally it's a very high turnout with a lot of young voters and a supposed high degree of tactical voting. Johnson just tweeted he was out campaigning in his own constituency, that's the first time he's even mentioned it, and there are credible suggestions that he might lose his seat there.

There's virtually no chance that corbyn can win this election outright with a majority, but johnson could lose it, and not gain an overall majority. if that happens, then we get a hung parliament and most likely, a second referendum on EU membership to break the deadlock. If Johnson gets even a small majority, then we're out ans the withdrawal bill will pass, he's effectively purged all the moderate MPs from the party by expelling the ones who voted again prorogation. If the polls are to be believed, the latter is the more likely outcome. it looks like it will be close though.

Simply passing the WA isn't getting brexit done though, that's just the start of a long process or renegotiation, under johnson's WA, we only have eleven months to negotiate a free trade agreement before we crash out automatically, and if we want an extension we have to request it next july, which Johnson has ruled out.

The only way he'll get a deal in this time frame is to give in to the EU's demands, he's already done this with his WA, and if anyoine has got the face to do it, he has. This thread by Katia Adler is a good summing up of what's likely to happen.

https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1203975926838710272
 
From the exit polls it looks like definitely being Johnson with a large majority, with a free hand to do pretty much what he wants.
 
BasilSeal said:
From the exit polls it looks like definitely being Johnson with a large majority, with a free hand to do pretty much what he wants.
Click to expand...
Our national broadcaster is terribly surprised :rolleyes2:. Who would have thought there would be a backlash after a democratic decision was withheld from the people. I can see Boris purging the ERG people from his front bench and consolidating his own position. He has shown himself to be very ruthless so far and won't stop now. It will likely be Brexit in name only in the end I think. Corbyn had nowhere to move having been backed into a corner on Brexit away from his own instincts. He tried to make up for it with a manifesto that was nearly too detailed. What Farage does now will determine a lot. The SNP have done really well even though they are losing support in the Scottish parliament.
Bercow is on sky now and has a great career ahead as a pundit.

Will Boris build the bridge to NI now? :lol:
 
6600 said:
Our national broadcaster is terribly surprised :rolleyes2:. Who would have thought there would be a backlash after a democratic decision was withheld from the people. I can see Boris purging the ERG people from his front bench and consolidating his own position. He has shown himself to be very ruthless so far and won't stop now. It will likely be Brexit in name only in the end I think. Corbyn had nowhere to move having been backed into a corner on Brexit away from his own instincts. He tried to make up for it with a manifesto that was nearly too detailed. What Farage does now will determine a lot. The SNP have done really well even though they are losing support in the Scottish parliament.
Bercow is on sky now and has a great career ahead as a pundit.

Will Boris build the bridge to NI now? :lol:
Click to expand...

I think you're right. johnson isn't ideologically committed to brexit, it's served his purpose now and he needs it out of the way, the only way he'll manage that in the narrow time frame he's given himself is to cave to the EU's demands. He'll have the majority to do that now, he no longer needs the swivel eyed loons of the ERG, he'll drop them like a hot potato.
 
BasilSeal said:
I think you're right. johnson isn't ideologically committed to brexit, it's served his purpose now and he needs it out of the way, the only way he'll manage that in the narrow time frame he's given himself is to cave to the EU's demands. He'll have the majority to do that now, he no longer needs the swivel eyed loons of the ERG, he'll drop them like a hot potato.
Click to expand...

Nor does he need the DUP with the majority he has. Arlene & co must be rightly smarting now between losing their kingmaker status and two seats. I wonder if this will make them more amenable to getting the NI assembly running again so that they can shout and be heard, they mightn't be heard too well from a corner in the commons.
 
bagenal said:
Nor does he need the DUP with the majority he has. Arlene & co must be rightly smarting now between losing their kingmaker status and two seats. I wonder if this will make them more amenable to getting the NI assembly running again so that they can shout and be heard, they mightn't be heard too well from a corner in the commons.
Click to expand...
Dodds is a big loss to them, and he is already on about getting the assembly up and running again

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk-election-2019-northern-ireland/2019/1213/1098878-general-election-dup/
 
6600 said:
Our national broadcaster is terribly surprised :rolleyes2:. Who would have thought there would be a backlash after a democratic decision was withheld from the people. I can see Boris purging the ERG people from his front bench and consolidating his own position. He has shown himself to be very ruthless so far and won't stop now. It will likely be Brexit in name only in the end I think. Corbyn had nowhere to move having been backed into a corner on Brexit away from his own instincts. He tried to make up for it with a manifesto that was nearly too detailed. What Farage does now will determine a lot. The SNP have done really well even though they are losing support in the Scottish parliament.
Bercow is on sky now and has a great career ahead as a pundit.

Will Boris build the bridge to NI now? :lol:
Click to expand...
Labour better hope diane is counting the votes
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top