Questions on herd number and land purchase

[mixedbag]

I thought all person's who were transferring out entitlements had to have an agent involved?

No, you can do it yourself through your agfood account

 

[King of the town]

Would anyone be able to give me an idea of the process flow after submitting my application? It's been in a few weeks now and still nothing back, I rang and they confirmed they have received it and it's in process but wouldn't comment further or give an estimate on how long.

If everything is ok with it will I just be issued a herd number or there a pre-inspection etc? I wonder would they wave this during the current crisis if it is required? I don't think I gave enough proof of ownership so I'm waiting on them to come back on that to be honest but have this proof on the way from my solicitor.

I'm getting worried about having the herd number in time to get my bps, ANC and national reserve applications in. If I can get it anywhere near the time at all I should be ok as I'll just buy a bit of stock of the father to cover me for having stock. That wasn't the plan but in the current situation it's the fastest and easiest way to do it.

As an aside is there any talk at all of extending the 15th may deadline?

 

[Nashty]

Would anyone be able to give me an idea of the process flow after submitting my application? It's been in a few weeks now and still nothing back, I rang and they confirmed they have received it and it's in process but wouldn't comment further or give an estimate on how long.

If everything is ok with it will I just be issued a herd number or there a pre-inspection etc? I wonder would they wave this during the current crisis if it is required? I don't think I gave enough proof of ownership so I'm waiting on them to come back on that to be honest but have this proof on the way from my solicitor.

I'm getting worried about having the herd number in time to get my bps, ANC and national reserve applications in. If I can get it anywhere near the time at all I should be ok as I'll just buy a bit of stock of the father to cover me for having stock. That wasn't the plan but in the current situation it's the fastest and easiest way to do it.

As an aside is there any talk at all of extending the 15th may deadline?

You likely won't satisfy the stocking rate requirement for the ANC for this year, stock have to be kept for 7 months as far as I am aware which is not a possibility unless you have the herd number in place by end of May.

 

[King of the town]

You likely won't satisfy the stocking rate requirement for the ANC for this year, stock have to be kept for 7 months as far as I am aware which is not a possibility unless you have the herd number in place by end of May.

If I haven't the herd number in time to apply for bps, ANC etc by 15th May amn't I ruled out anyway for this year (and I'll be ruled out of the national reserve altogether as I wont meet the criteria next year) so I really need the herd number before the 15th may. They have the application over two weeks now so surely should be able to get it sorted in another two to three weeks even with the current situation? I suppose that depends on if its just a matter of them issuing me a herd number or do they have to actually come out first to inspect (which surely should be waved and done at a later date during the lockdown)?

I'd get over the ANC and BPS for one year its missing out on the free entitlements that will be the real killer.

 

[nashmach]

It has not been announced but there was no inspections of any sort pre Easter when the country went into lockdown. I suspect the same now applies to May 5th.

There will be no extension to the May 15th deadline it has been announced already.

 

[mixedbag]

If you have applied for a herd number before 15th May but the application isn’t processed yet an agricultural agent (advisor) can do a bps/anc application for you

 

[King of the town]

There will be no extension to the May 15th deadline it has been announced already.

I saw that announcement also but it was a few weeks ago. I work a little with the gov and the EU though my off farm job (not agri related) and hard deadlines that "definitely weren't moving" are now being pushed out a month or even two in some cases. I've also herd some rumours about it being pushed to the end of June.

If you have applied for a herd number before 15th May but the application isn’t processed yet an agricultural agent (advisor) can do a bps/anc application for you

Thanks for that, will keep it in mind.

 

[lough]

I saw that announcement also but it was a few weeks ago. I work a little with the gov and the EU though my off farm job (not agri related) and hard deadlines that "definitely weren't moving" are now being pushed out a month or even two in some cases. I've also herd some rumours about it being pushed to the end of June.

The date will not be extended, if they extend the closing date, it will slow down the processing of the applications which in turn will delay the date the money is paid out. They will not want to delay the date the money is paid out this year of all years, they will be looking to get it paid out early so the closing date will not change. I'm fairly sure you will still be able to apply given that you applied for the herd number. Talk to someone in your local Dept of Ag office, that's where the application is processed and if someone is going out to check it out, they will come from that office.
I applied for a herd number a few years ago and two inspectors came out just to check that everything was ok, they knew what they were looking for and everything was in place, if there is nothing dodgy going on you will have no problem and the majority of the inspectors would probably be ok and understanding.

 

[King of the town]

Been told that to get the herd number I need to produce a lease agreement for the use of the cattle crush, total nonsense if you ask me. Anyway I'm planning to just draw up a very basic lease myself or find a template online and both myself and father will sign it no rent will be paid obviously. Will this suffice? I have read a land ease has to be registered, stamp duty involved but I'd assume for a facility it wouldn't need to be registered anywhere? Any one have any info, finding it hard to find anything online.

I got my BPS and NR/young farmers scheme applications in without the herd number, DVO are needlessly being a pain in hole about giving the herd number but looks to be getting there now with it.

 

[nashmach]

Been told that to get the herd number I need to produce a lease agreement for the use of the cattle crush, total nonsense if you ask me. Anyway I'm planning to just draw up a very basic lease myself or find a template online and both myself and father will sign it no rent will be paid obviously. Will this suffice? I have read a land ease has to be registered, stamp duty involved but I'd assume for a facility it wouldn't need to be registered anywhere? Any one have any info, finding it hard to find anything online.

I got my BPS and NR/young farmers scheme applications in without the herd number, DVO are needlessly being a pain in hole about giving the herd number but looks to be getting there now with it.

DVO are doing their job, one of the main requirements stated in black and white on the bottom of the form you signed was your own crush and housing for a sick animal which must be on your own land or leased.

 

[King of the town]

DVO are doing their job, one of the main requirements stated in black and white on the bottom of the form you signed was your own crush and housing for a sick animal which must be on your own land or leased.

There is no mention of facility requirements in the form actually. Were it not for reading up about it and asking questions here the first I would have heard about needing a separate crush and a small shed would have been when contacted by the DVO and they asked if I had access to a shed and crush which I clearly do have access to a separate shed and crush asking for leases etc is just needless box ticking along with a few other annoying requests that imo are tying to make me pull out of applying as they don’t want family members having separate herd numbers side by side.

 

[nashmach]

There is no mention of facility requirements in the form actually. Were it not for reading up about it and asking questions here the first I would have heard about needing a separate crush and a small shed would have been when contacted by the DVO and they asked if I had access to a shed and crush which I clearly do have access to a separate shed and crush asking for leases etc is just needless box ticking along with a few other annoying requests that imo are tying to make me pull out of applying as they don’t want family members having separate herd numbers side by side.

My mistake, but it is clearly part of the terms and conditions as in the information sheet which is on their website.

Screenshot above, that's where I was thinking of and a sheet the Dept sent a copy of which is not on their website.

 

[lough]

There is no mention of facility requirements in the form actually. Were it not for reading up about it and asking questions here the first I would have heard about needing a separate crush and a small shed would have been when contacted by the DVO and they asked if I had access to a shed and crush which I clearly do have access to a separate shed and crush asking for leases etc is just needless box ticking along with a few other annoying requests that imo are tying to make me pull out of applying as they don’t want family members having separate herd numbers side by side.

It is not needless box ticking, it is to stop fraud and a whole list of other things. I own no land and built a slatted shed on my mothers land and had to get a five year lease for that.

 

[King of the town]

View attachment 78367
My mistake, but it is clearly part of the terms and conditions as in the information sheet which is on their website.

Screenshot above, that's where I was thinking of and a sheet the Dept sent a copy of which is not on their website.

Thanks, I had seen that before but it's ages ago and only rechecked the form not that info page. I was remember correctly though in that there is no mention that the facilities have to be owned or leased just they have to be separate and independant from anyone else using them. I can clearly demonstrate this. If all that's needed is a bit of paper with our signatures that's no problem really its if there is an expectation for something properly official witnessed by someone or submitted somewhere.

We live on a busy road surrounded by a lot of farms and lots of lads have land rented near us and sharing other farmers facilities as the norm (i.e. one farmer nearby has some land leased out but still uses his own yard for remaining stock etc, the lad renting the land from him uses farmers crush regularly), no sheds anywhere near etc etc hence why its annoying the nitpicking going on for me when I am wanting to comply fully with the rules.

It is not needless box ticking, it is to stop fraud and a whole list of other things. I own no land and built a slatted shed on my mothers land and had to get a five year lease for that.

Needless box ticking probably sounds harsh but I've clearly demonstrated meeting all the requirements and time and work has gone into this. This constant coming back for more bits just to delay is getting very annoying when to me it is needless.

Just on the lease did you just do it up yourself and sign it or is more required for a facility ease? I know land leases require registration but I'm hopeful none of that is needed for a crush.

 

[lough]

Thanks, I had seen that before but it's ages ago and only rechecked the form not that info page. I was remember correctly though in that there is no mention that the facilities have to be owned or leased just they have to be separate and independant from anyone else using them. I can clearly demonstrate this. If all that's needed is a bit of paper with our signatures that's no problem really its if there is an expectation for something properly official witnessed by someone or submitted somewhere.

We live on a busy road surrounded by a lot of farms and lots of lads have land rented near us and sharing other farmers facilities as the norm (i.e. one farmer nearby has some land leased out but still uses his own yard for remaining stock etc, the lad renting the land from him uses farmers crush regularly), no sheds anywhere near etc etc hence why its annoying the nitpicking going on for me.



Needless box ticking probably sounds harsh but I've clearly demonstrated meeting all the requirements and time and work has gone into this. This constant coming back for more bits just to delay is getting very annoying when to be it is needless.

Just on the lease did you just do it up yourself and sign it or is more required for a facility ease? I know land leases require registration but I'm hopeful none of that is needed for a crush.

I would say them people using them other facilities shouldn't be doing it, we all do it but shouldn't, just do what they ask and you will be all right. If it takes you a couple of years to get it all sorted, everything will be back dated to the date you first applied.

I have two leases one from my father which I think I got done officially through a solicitor and the second from my mother which I done myself. My mother's name is still on the herd number though. I'm the main name of contact on it. It's a while ago now since I done it, I think I just copied the one the solicitor done and got a witness to sign it, didn't get it registered.

 

[King of the town]

I know there is a requirement for being eligible for the ANC payment of having a a minimum stocking number for 7 months of the year. It won’t be possible for me to meet that now as it will be into June before I can buy stock as I’m still finalising things with the herd number.

I was googling around and came across an article in one of the papers from a few years ago saying that if there are delays getting a herd number that they won’t penalise on the ANC payment even if you don’t get the full 7 months meeting the stocking rate. I can’t find anything more recent though or anything from the department so was just wondering if this still applies or was it a once off back then (think the article was from 2015).

 

[Nashty]

I know there is a requirement for being eligible for the ANC payment of having a a minimum stocking number for 7 months of the year. It won’t be possible for me to meet that now as it will be into June before I can buy stock as I’m still finalising things with the herd number.

I was googling around and came across an article in one of the papers from a few years ago saying that if there are delays getting a herd number that they won’t penalise on the ANC payment even if you don’t get the full 7 months meeting the stocking rate. I can’t find anything more recent though or anything from the department so was just wondering if this still applies or was it a once off back then (think the article was from 2015).

Speaking from my own personal situation, similar to you, my first year farming I didn't have the herd number in time to get stock purchased to comply with the ANC residency rules that year and didn't get the ANC as a result. I didn't challenge them on it, perhaps I should have, that would have been 2016 I think. To be honest, in my case, it wasn't the end of the world for me for that one year and I didn't want to rock any boats when getting set up.

 

[JohnBoy]

sharing your father's shed and crush might not keep them happy.

The point of the requirement is that if you have sick animals you have somewhere to treat them. It's a disease control measure that you have somewhere to treat them that they are not mixing with someone else's herd.

A lease for the shared use of facilities might raise more questions than it answers.

they might not dig too deep into it, but they might, just warning you.

 

[mixedbag]

Shared facilities not allowed. Must be exclusive right to use

 

[King of the town]

Speaking from my own personal situation, similar to you, my first year farming I didn't have the herd number in time to get stock purchased to comply with the ANC residency rules that year and didn't get the ANC as a result. I didn't challenge them on it, perhaps I should have, that would have been 2016 I think. To be honest, in my case, it wasn't the end of the world for me for that one year and I didn't want to rock any boats when getting set up.

Thanks, I found the article again it took sometime: https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/herd-number-worries-eased-in-anc-scheme-336214.html

I'll certainly be looking to get the ANC paid and will appeal if necessary as I had applied for the herd number with months to spare and between covid and other delays (on the RVO side) have ended up not having it to have stock got in time.

sharing your father's shed and crush might not keep them happy.

The point of the requirement is that if you have sick animals you have somewhere to treat them. It's a disease control measure that you have somewhere to treat them that they are not mixing with someone else's herd.

A lease for the shared use of facilities might raise more questions than it answers.

they might not dig too deep into it, but they might, just warning you.

The facilities are not shared I have exclusive use of them, they were backup facilities my father used from time to time but he has a much better set of facilities not too far away which he mostly used anyway as they are more modern. I was on the phone to the RVO today again and things are getting sorted in relation to this anyway, I have to provide some other details etc but hopefully next week the go ahead to issue a herd number will be given.

 

[King of the town]

Just to update and I suppose bring this thread to a conclusion. I was granted the herd number at the end of last week so all sorted now and already have some stock bought in which I will hopefully try to get the ANC payment with even if I have to appeal. Just getting my BPS and YFS/NR applications linked to my herd number now and then all is set, fingers crossed on getting issued with entitlements.

Overall the process is not that difficult but covid slowed things down a lot but by far the biggest stumbling block is the clear and annoying desire not to give herd numbers to two family members but once you stick at them and meet all the requirements they have to issue it in the end.

Thanks for the help and advice from different people since my first post on the topic. Will certainly be using the forum for advice again going forward.

 

[King of the town]

One other quick question related to this, I was just thinking over the weekend I wasn't asked for bank details at any stage yet and can't find anywhere on agfood to enter them. Just wondering whats the story with this aspect as they would obviously need my account for any payments.

 

[Nashty]

You need to ring the finance department in department of agriculture, think they are based in Cavan and they will take your bank details.

 

[nashmach]

One other quick question related to this, I was just thinking over the weekend I wasn't asked for bank details at any stage yet and can't find anywhere on agfood to enter them. Just wondering whats the story with this aspect as they would obviously need my account for any payments.

Form is up on the website, same page I think has the herdnumber application.

Surprised you weren't asked for it!

As said above the office dealing with it are based in Cavan.

 

[Bcl]

Form is up on the website, same page I think has the herdnumber application.

Surprised you weren't asked for it!

As said above the office dealing with it are based in Cavan.

If I remember correctly they post you out the forms for completion as one of the last steps of the application, it's like it's only triggered when everything else about your application is verified. My form was pre-printed with name address and new herd number and all I had to fill was Iban etc