75,000 less suckler calves this year.

bruceythom said:
That brings your peak down to 41 litres (which by the way is very high), takes the shine off of ladies doing over 60. I'm not mocking, my point is we all have cows that will produce much higher than others, every herd has them, (I have cows that will give me 35 litres in one milking in a 5000 litre herd) and there is little sense in setting the goal posts off of these cows. A herd delivering 15000 litres would be awesome. Dont think it's currently being achieved though.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Ah yeah I do agree, but like I'm only talking from my own herd here,and still feel that it wouldn't compare to some of the top herds around,so I don't think that it would be impossible, like there's a big difference between your standard grass based cow and some of these Holstein type.
If your top cow peaked at 35ls/milking witch is my top cows peak,there still seems to be a big difference on our averages,don't know what's going on there.....!
 
limerick man said:
Yeah things would want to be fairly right but not impossible,we've seen it done in other country's.
All I can say is from my herd is all the cows will peak over 40ls and a few over 60ls heifers anything up to it and above sometimes.
Click to expand...

Where? Even the US with all their stuff we're not allowed use rarely claim figures that high
Yes peak not average. I have cows here who peak in their 30s but even 60l peak is a long way from 50l average across 305 lactation.
I won't lie I dont believe it is possible over more than 30 cows even with the best management you would need an entire herd of Bailey's cows
nashmach said:
So basically you are all saying that this will need a major feeding regime with lots of concentrates.

Can anyone tell me, what kind of percentage increase with each generation of heifers would you expect?
Click to expand...
I won't lie I'm suggesting it's not possible. Not without some chemical assistance. I've seen 15k cows but never a 15k herd
I'd suggest you wouldnt want to have any heifers in the herd. Might be possible in theory (on a very small herd) to get to that buying in only proven 12,000l 2nd calvers
 
Mf240 said:
You mean calve every spring an a tonne or a bit more of ration, I'd say 7000/8000 would be around the limit. But who knows what possible in the future.
Click to expand...

I do have a few that did 7200ish on low meal but that was milk recording figures not litres delivered
Don't think even 7000 would be possible on 1tonne delivered
Chewdles said:
to get those avg 14/150000 litre yielding herds of cows would it need to be a indoor system of dairying with consistent diets etc and on a spring system at grass what would the maximum herd avg yield be and I don't mean a herd being stuffed inside and let out for a lie down
Click to expand...
Even at that indoor, 14,000litre would be doing excellent. Above that, you wouldnt want to be worrying about longevity
 
TMKF said:
Where? Even the US with all their stuff we're not allowed use rarely claim figures that high
Yes peak not average. I have cows here who peak in their 30s but even 60l peak is a long way from 50l average across 305 lactation.
I won't lie I dont believe it is possible over more than 30 cows even with the best management you would need an entire herd of Bailey's cows

I won't lie I'm suggesting it's not possible. Not without some chemical assistance. I've seen 15k cows but never a 15k herd
I'd suggest you wouldnt want to have any heifers in the herd. Might be possible in theory (on a very small herd) to get to that buying in only proven 12,000l 2nd calvers
Click to expand...

Sure if some of my higher yielding cows are doing it with grass,grass silage,and meal would you not agree,with some of the alternative feeds that one would able to grow or get to feed cows that it would be possible.
Just wondering what the boys up north or across the pond would think.
 
limerick man said:
Sure if some of my higher yielding cows are doing it with grass,grass silage,and meal would you not agree,with some of the alternative feeds that one would able to grow or get to feed cows that it would be possible.
Just wondering what the boys up north or across the pond would think.
Click to expand...

I asked BANKVILLE he thinks there might be one doing near that. I've never heard of one up north either.
Not really, there's an upper biological limit to what a cow can take in and put out. To break that you need to intervene in the system itself with stuff like hormones. I'd suggest a comparison with top speed of cars, easy to make a 100mph car, hard but not impossible to make 200mph but every 10mph after takes more effort than it did to make the 100mph and probably more fuel! 15k herd would be like having a parking lot of Bugatti
 
TMKF said:
I asked BANKVILLE he thinks there might be one doing near that. I've never heard of one up north either.
Not really, there's an upper biological limit to what a cow can take in and put out. To break that you need to intervene in the system itself with stuff like hormones. I'd suggest a comparison with top speed of cars, easy to make a 100mph car, hard but not impossible to make 200mph but every 10mph after takes more effort than it did to make the 100mph and probably more fuel! 15k herd would be like having a parking lot of Bugatti
Click to expand...

So it is possible.
 
jonny depp said:
This topic was about 75000 less weanlings and now it is an out and out dairy thread , with 1 lad saying that my cow gives more than your cow , is this normal on here .:whistling::whistling:
Click to expand...

Whats normal? things are not always what they seem on here from my experience ;)
 
limerick man said:
So it is possible.
Click to expand...

I'll put my view this way: it is theoretically possible, but functionally impossible
But as with all things in agricultural science I wait only to be disproven.

Also to add on it though, if it was achieved it would be little more than a thought exercise and almost certainly be unprofitable as all extremes are.
Only way to make money by pushing it to that extremes would be to get your name out and sell embryos out of it (which would be a nightmare as the fertility would be diabolical)
 
jonny depp said:
This topic was about 75000 less weanlings and now it is an out and out dairy thread , with 1 lad saying that my cow gives more than your cow , is this normal on here .:whistling::whistling:
Click to expand...
there is nobody shoving it down anyones throat tho, and the thread is near 24 pages long, most threads by now will be well off course, but its still related somewhat to the op yet.

as for it being the norm on here, well, in the past we have had a few people who believed if members on here weren't doing things the way they did, then they weren't farming at all.
but 98% of the members left on here, understand that every man has his own way of doing things.

the conversations are open, and as long as members contribute in an honest and polite way, then there are no problems.
 
TMKF said:
I'll put my view this way: it is theoretically possible, but functionally impossible
But as with all things in agricultural science I wait only to be disproven.

Also to add on it though, if it was achieved it would be little more than a thought exercise and almost certainly be unprofitable as all extremes are.
Only way to make money by pushing it to that extremes would be to get your name out and sell embryos out of it (which would be a nightmare as the fertility would be diabolical)
Click to expand...

And how exactly have to come to those conclusions?? Because id have to disagree with you??
 
Chewdles said:
If TMFK cows were put into BANKVILLE production system or vice versa it just wouldn't make sence
Click to expand...
Of course, but I was debating the point of diminishing returns and upper limit. I wouldnt deny that systems up to 14,000l can be profitable but pushing any system to it's absolute limit to prove what can be done normally ends in unprofitability due to the ambition to single-mindedly reach the goal. You make sacrifices to reach that goal regardless of the cost to the business.
On our system that would be trying to push total stocking rate over say 4.5lu/ha or SCC below 50,000.
 
TMKF said:
Of course, but I was debating the point of diminishing returns and upper limit. I wouldnt deny that systems up to 14,000l can be profitable but pushing any system to it's absolute limit to prove what can be done normally ends in unprofitability due to the ambition to single-mindedly reach the goal. You make sacrifices to reach that goal regardless of the cost to the business.
On our system that would be trying to push total stocking rate over say 4.5lu/ha or SCC below 50,000.
Click to expand...

that's a serious stocking rate (misprint) . but I get what your saying its about trying to find the sweet spot
 
bruceythom said:
Exactly. In nearly all cases, the scepticism is begrudgery. The milk prices will climb up too, then what you paid for the land won't, repayments wont climb up a whole pile (well shouldn't anyway). It's the first 5 years after buying land that's tough, you need to get as much output from it as possible. If Tim818 isn't able to stock the land straight away without buying in (which I doubt he can) I suggested here before to consider share farming some of it in tillage. A low return I'll admit, but it's getting an income from the land that would otherwise be impossible. Share farming means he doesn't have to worry about the crops/machinery either. He would have handy access to straw and grain if he so wished, we are going to see more grain stored on farms in the future I think.
Stocking newly bought land lowly is not an option.
Click to expand...

If a miracle did happen and I did get them 50acres, the plan would be to ramp up production as quickly as possible. We rent that land anyways at the second, all in grass/fenced etc. I'd probably buy in 30 maiden heifers now, and afew more to calf down in 2016. It would leave me milking 120 in 2015, and 145 in 2016. I wouldnt need any new sheds, just more slurry storage. The bought in heifers would probably be JEx, as the most of them can be outwintered without too much of fuss. I'd be growing as much grass as is possible still, any excess off the land could be sold at silage, but judging by the last few yrs, that is unlikely. But anyways, my basic opinion on the matter is dairying will by far give the best return on the land, so ramping up as quick as possible would be my only hope. And over the longer term, I'd probably contract rear the heifers, and keep on stocking the land up to 3.1cows/ha.

But in anycase, If I get this "miracle", I most certainly would be thinking loong and hard about it, it would probably mean sacrificing my life for the next 5/10yrs, both from a financial and social point of view, and it would stall other business opportunities that I currently have!
 
Tim818 said:
If a miracle did happen and I did get them 50acres, the plan would be to ramp up production as quickly as possible. We rent that land anyways at the second, all in grass/fenced etc. I'd probably buy in 30 maiden heifers now, and afew more to calf down in 2016. It would leave me milking 120 in 2015, and 145 in 2016. I wouldnt need any new sheds, just more slurry storage. The bought in heifers would probably be JEx, as the most of them can be outwintered without too much of fuss. I'd be growing as much grass as is possible still, any excess off the land could be sold at silage, but judging by the last few yrs, that is unlikely. But anyways, my basic opinion on the matter is dairying will by far give the best return on the land, so ramping up as quick as possible would be my only hope. And over the longer term, I'd probably contract rear the heifers, and keep on stocking the land up to 3.1cows/ha.

But in anycase, If I get this "miracle", I most certainly would be thinking loong and hard about it, it would probably mean sacrificing my life for the next 5/10yrs, both from a financial and social point of view, and it would stall other business opportunities that I currently have!
Click to expand...

What would your plans be if someone else bought those 50 acres and you no longer rented them??
 
Chewdles said:
Lads does it not come back to the production system which you choose to do.

If TMFK cows were put into BANKVILLE production system or vice versa it just wouldn't make sence
Click to expand...

Id like to think we can both debate the merits of production systems without needing a referee.

just to go of topic yet again my vet was telling me that he was at a conference somewhere in England and costing showed cows between 6000lt and 8000lt were least profitable
 
BANKVILLE said:
Id like to think we can both debate the merits of production systems without needing a referee.

just to go of topic yet again my vet was telling me that he was at a conference somewhere in England and costing showed cows between 6000lt and 8000lt were least profitable
Click to expand...

its not about being a referee but I do know in my own spring calving system that the cows that pump out the high volumes of milk tend not to stay in the system as its very hard to get them back in calf but if I was prepared to let calving interval slip they would eventually go back in calf but I would end up in all year round milking and that's not the type of system I want to be in.

if what I read into the fact that between 6000l and 8000l is not profitable then at either side(within reason) is more profitable and you really have to decide what system your in
 
BANKVILLE said:
What would your plans be if someone else bought those 50 acres and you no longer rented them??
Click to expand...

Not the end of the world, stock the current milking platform of 110acres to 140ish cows, keep driving on yeild but with high ebi cows, aim for about 7kl (600kgMS) delivered per cow per yr, with about a ton of bought in feed, some of which would be bought in maize/wholecrop, then either rent ground for heifers/silage, or just contract rear them. Other options do exist around me to expand the grazing block also, I'm working on trying to secure a 5acre waste feild at the minute, the owner hasn't budged yet! Only offered him 500, but no maps and needs fencing/reseed. Maybe i should offer him more ha.
 
Chewdles said:
its not about being a referee but I do know in my own spring calving system that the cows that pump out the high volumes of milk tend not to stay in the system as its very hard to get them back in calf but if I was prepared to let calving interval slip they would eventually go back in calf but I would end up in all year round milking and that's not the type of system I want to be in.

if what I read into the fact that between 6000l and 8000l is not profitable then at either side(within reason) is more profitable and you really have to decide what system your in
Click to expand...

Do you think your cows that pump out the high volumes of milk are hard to get in calf because of the fertility of the cow or the system that she is in???
 
not being smart but I think they are infertile in my system, but yes in another system she could possibly last with feeding to yield and a little more time etc.

saying that some cows are inherently infertile and some cows last in systems where theoretically they shouldn't ie milk really well on high grass diet, low conc, lots of walking even maybe a low ebi.
 
BANKVILLE said:
Id like to think we can both debate the merits of production systems without needing a referee.

just to go of topic yet again my vet was telling me that he was at a conference somewhere in England and costing showed cows between 6000lt and 8000lt were least profitable
Click to expand...
That would be the UK attitude alright. Different perception of profit, different system.
I suppose though on the intensive feeding system much of the UK operate a 6-8k cow would be at the bottom end of productivity where 10k would be the norm, kinda like a 3k cow in grass based 5k system.
BANKVILLE said:
Would you like to explain how you made the following 3 conclusions,
Functionally impossible,
Unprofitable,
Diabolical fertility??
Click to expand...
Ok.
So I say functionally impossible because to ensure every single cow was at optimum would take super human management skills or a brutal cull program. So say you have 20% of the herd in 2nd lac doing a excellent 14k you would still need 20% of the herd doing 16k (those cows even amongst HOs are few and far between). If even 5% of the herd is "sub-optimum" and doing 13k you would need 5% doing 17k...I don't know of many of those? Unless you have a herd of like 30 then 15000l would be easy

Unprofitable refers more to the first guy to reach 15k more than if all the herds edge up to that (which I'm skeptical of happening), he would need to sacrifice all else not just in breeding but more importantly in management. You would need to spend every penny to get every drop out of the cows. Pushing feeding to the last, facilities and services you would need to have to get the very last out of the cows would cost a bomb because you're pushing the cows so hard (waterbed mats, regular checks from vets, hoof parers etc). At that yield I'd imagine you'd need to be on 4/milkings/day so extra labour costs right there. You're probably also gonna have extra medical costs to deal with simply the level of feeding, acidosis and LDAs are more common at high feeding levels-so you're going to have to expect more of that the higher up you go (before anyone decides to take my head off, I know you guys do a good job dealing with those issues but dealing with them does cost a lot)

Fertility - ok so 3 main reasons for this claim.
1) As I said above associated health issues reducing fertility
2) High yield is strongly positively correlated with infertility. As you would be using literally the most high yielding genetics you would also be using the most infertile lines of holsteins.
3) To get yields that high really all you can work with are a very small number of holstein bulls. Associated with that if you're trying to get a trait that strong you're going to have to...."linebreed" so your inbreed coefficient is going to end up going up. That means that you're also dealing with inbreeding depression.

BANKVILLE said:
Do you think your cows that pump out the high volumes of milk are hard to get in calf because of the fertility of the cow or the system that she is in???
Click to expand...
We know selection for high yield does highly correlate with infertility, in the right system some of this can be overcome with higher management and denser energy input but that has a limit
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top