Brexit

He also wiped out the farmers and middle class and starved 10 million Ukrainians to death in the 30's. That's socialism, everyone has the right to be equally poor.
Read about Operation Keelhaul and see how he treated the Eastern Europeans who had fought with the Germans.
Have a look also at how the Russians treated the German women. It had a lot to do with how fiercely the Germans fought in hopeless circumstances against their advance.
General Patton wanted to continue into Russia and defeat them when they were weak. He was ridiculed and sidelined but it would have avoided the Cold War and Korea and Vietnam.
 
this is an interesting piece on the practical difficulties of delivering brexit in terms of project management

https://heterocephalusgabler.wordpress.com/2019/01/28/brexit-cannot-break-the-iron-triangle/

I think this makes some interesting points, but if your idea of reasoned debate is posting links to a facebook picture of Donald Tusk photoshopped into a Nazi uniform, you may not agree.
Interesting points indeed , possibly falls down a bit where it says brixitears didn't think there would be consequences .
Bit disappointed with your last paragraph , the constant banging the drum that all leavers are , thick ,racists or whatever isn't helpful, and just because the figures arnt adding up in your head doesn't make it wrong . Not everything in black and white makes sense and like I said before theres more to life than money .
On a side note I always think people have an alternative motive for the way they vote , would I be right in thinking that when we leave and theres a bit of a squeeze in everyone's pocket some things might go on the back burner , like putting food on the table more important than spending a bit more on more niche upmarket products that are more "ethically " produced ?
 
Interesting points indeed , possibly falls down a bit where it says brixitears didn't think there would be consequences .
Bit disappointed with your last paragraph , the constant banging the drum that all leavers are , thick ,racists or whatever isn't helpful, and just because the figures arnt adding up in your head doesn't make it wrong . Not everything in black and white makes sense and like I said before theres more to life than money .
On a side note I always think people have an alternative motive for the way they vote , would I be right in thinking that when we leave and theres a bit of a squeeze in everyone's pocket some things might go on the back burner , like putting food on the table more important than spending a bit more on more niche upmarket products that are more "ethically " produced ?

The problem with squeezed pockets is that it’s usually the poorest that suffer most.
 
The problem with squeezed pockets is that it’s usually the poorest that suffer most.
True . However we have young Kieran telling us how manufacturing is out and high end jobs are in which is fine but if you've struggled all your life and never managed the opportunity to get a degree these jobs might be a bit out of reach for you , and thanks to the the EU and and artical 11 and 13 voted in by mep's that have no understanding of it , making money on YouTube and insta has got a whole lot harder , thanx to pewdipie and the likes the YouTube bubble has burst
 
Interesting points indeed , possibly falls down a bit where it says brixitears didn't think there would be consequences .
Bit disappointed with your last paragraph , the constant banging the drum that all leavers are , thick ,racists or whatever isn't helpful, and just because the figures arnt adding up in your head doesn't make it wrong . Not everything in black and white makes sense and like I said before theres more to life than money .
On a side note I always think people have an alternative motive for the way they vote , would I be right in thinking that when we leave and theres a bit of a squeeze in everyone's pocket some things might go on the back burner , like putting food on the table more important than spending a bit more on more niche upmarket products that are more "ethically " produced ?
True . However we have young Kieran telling us how manufacturing is out and high end jobs are in which is fine but if you've struggled all your life and never managed the opportunity to get a degree these jobs might be a bit out of reach for you , and thanks to the the EU and and artical 11 and 13 voted in by mep's that have no understanding of it , making money on YouTube and insta has got a whole lot harder , thanx to pewdipie and the likes the YouTube bubble has burst

I never said manufacturing was out. I said that the manufacturing was never going to return to the heights it had. And brexit was never going to bring this about anyways. If the economy does sugger, how does the government generate money for public services such as healthcare, education and defence? The issue isnt individuals feeling the pinch out of this. Its schools, hospitals, the police, the council. Childrens education wjll suffer. Hospitals will suffer. A reduction in gdp will mean a reduction in funding for public services. The NHS wont get 350 million a week. It too will suffer.

You talk about food. Jacob rees mogg wants to bring in hormone fed beef from America because its half the price of the much higher quality produce produced by British farmers. A customs union is one of the few ways to prevent this happening. The only way for british farmers to compete in such circumstances is to follow suit, and i dont think the use of hormones is something british farmers would br comfortable with.

The notion that the UK was going to have its secondary industrial revolution as a result of brexit was a fantasy. Even James Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving operations to singapore.

The seeds were sown for the decline of UK manufacturing industry in the 1950s and 60s, before the days of the EU. I watched a documentary on British Leyland lately, because in developing a full field of view of circumstances, i wanted to see what went wrong. In the time british leyland spent 70 million on R and D, volkswagen spent 300 million. They fell behind and could never catch up. If leaving the EU is the answer to stimulating your manufacturing industry, why hasn't Germany left the EU?

In studying engineering, i will probably end up in some form of manufacturing. My engineering placement was as a manufacturing engineer with Conor.

What i said that the UK has moved to a services based economy, as has Ireland, although not to quite the same degree. Services doesnt mean high end. Services refers to tourism, restaurants etc. If you want to get into manufacturing, you've an infinitely better chance of doing it inside the EU rather than outside.

Brexit was promised as a Utopia that would solve all problems when it simply can not be. In fact, a lot of the 38000 jobs in car manufacturing in the UK have been put at risk by Brexit. Airbus thinking of leaving. Bmw unsteady about the oxford plant.

Also, the "EU" werent solely to blame for article 13. Several labour and conservative voters voted for this.

I can tell by your tone, you voted leave cause youre pissed off with the status quo and want a change. I get that. I appreciate the problems you see, but i fail to see how leaving the EU is the answer.

I respect the fact that you realise Brexit will not deliver the sunlit economic uplands promised by Farage and his crew. My gripe is that if the electorate knew then what you know now, is this something they still would have voted for? I can understand the political and sovereign reasons behind brexit and empathise with them. The EU is far from perfect. But the move to leave was pushed by economic falsehoods.

Democracy is great. Just dont shit on your people by lying to them.
 
And also im not here to shit on anyone's beliefs, im here to futher the debate and you dont have go agree with what i say.

I also didnt just swan off to college without ever dirtying my hands. I started off when i was 15 putting toppers and disc mowers together, and washing tractors. From there i went fixing tractors and mowing grass. Ive seen lots of sides of the debate.

Id love to get a heap of money for driving a tractor in ireland instead of going to england. But i have to make peace with the fact theres very little i can do to change that.
 
I never said manufacturing was out. I said that the manufacturing was never going to return to the heights it had. And brexit was never going to bring this about anyways. If the economy does sugger, how does the government generate money for public services such as healthcare, education and defence? The issue isnt individuals feeling the pinch out of this. Its schools, hospitals, the police, the council. Childrens education wjll suffer. Hospitals will suffer. A reduction in gdp will mean a reduction in funding for public services. The NHS wont get 350 million a week. It too will suffer.

You talk about food. Jacob rees mogg wants to bring in hormone fed beef from America because its half the price of the much higher quality produce produced by British farmers. A customs union is one of the few ways to prevent this happening. The only way for british farmers to compete in such circumstances is to follow suit, and i dont think the use of hormones is something british farmers would br comfortable with.

The notion that the UK was going to have its secondary industrial revolution as a result of brexit was a fantasy. Even James Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving operations to singapore.

The seeds were sown for the decline of UK manufacturing industry in the 1950s and 60s, before the days of the EU. I watched a documentary on British Leyland lately, because in developing a full field of view of circumstances, i wanted to see what went wrong. In the time british leyland spent 70 million on R and D, volkswagen spent 300 million. They fell behind and could never catch up. If leaving the EU is the answer to stimulating your manufacturing industry, why hasn't Germany left the EU?

In studying engineering, i will probably end up in some form of manufacturing. My engineering placement was as a manufacturing engineer with Conor.

What i said that the UK has moved to a services based economy, as has Ireland, although not to quite the same degree. Services doesnt mean high end. Services refers to tourism, restaurants etc. If you want to get into manufacturing, you've an infinitely better chance of doing it inside the EU rather than outside.

Brexit was promised as a Utopia that would solve all problems when it simply can not be. In fact, a lot of the 38000 jobs in car manufacturing in the UK have been put at risk by Brexit. Airbus thinking of leaving. Bmw unsteady about the oxford plant.

Also, the "EU" werent solely to blame for article 13. Several labour and conservative voters voted for this.

I can tell by your tone, you voted leave cause youre pissed off with the status quo and want a change. I get that. I appreciate the problems you see, but i fail to see how leaving the EU is the answer.

I respect the fact that you realise Brexit will not deliver the sunlit economic uplands promised by Farage and his crew. My gripe is that if the electorate knew then what you know now, is this something they still would have voted for? I can understand the political and sovereign reasons behind brexit and empathise with them. The EU is far from perfect. But the move to leave was pushed by economic falsehoods.

Democracy is great. Just dont shit on your people by lying to them.
so your 21 then you say ?

I respect the fact that you realise Brexit will not deliver the sunlit economic uplands promised by Farage and his crew. My gripe is that if the electorate knew then what you know now, is this something they still would have voted for? I can understand the political and sovereign reasons behind brexit and empathise with them. The EU is far from perfect. But the move to leave was pushed by economic falsehoods.
putting aside your desperation to show us all how much smarter your are than the rest of us , ( dont be Nivea reas mog and farage would tear you to pieces ) some of what you say isnt far of the mark .

"if the electorate knew then what you know now, is this something they still would have voted for"

good point but they dint bargin on mps that wanted to stay in having to negotiate the way out , bearing in mind the eu demanded we shell out billions to secure the divorce then through in the irish boarder to completely f**k the job up , your right the average jo n the street didnt see that coming , nor apparently did parliament

The EU is far from perfect. But the move to leave was pushed by economic falsehoods.

no i dont beleive that statement , , thats a statement from a money man your average jo who voted out isnt obsessed with the economy , just getting by from day to day

"Democracy is great. Just dont shit on your people by lying to them"
that goes both ways
 
And also im not here to shit on anyone's beliefs, im here to futher the debate and you dont have go agree with what i say.

I also didnt just swan off to college without ever dirtying my hands. I started off when i was 15 putting toppers and disc mowers together, and washing tractors. From there i went fixing tractors and mowing grass. Ive seen lots of sides of the debate.

Id love to get a heap of money for driving a tractor in ireland instead of going to england. But i have to make peace with the fact theres very little i can do to change that.
no i believe your desperate to show us all how smart you are and make out all leavers are stupid. some of your posts are blatantly bait
 
so your 21 then you say ?


putting aside your desperation to show us all how much smarter your are than the rest of us , ( dont be Nivea reas mog and farage would tear you to pieces ) some of what you say isnt far of the mark .

"if the electorate knew then what you know now, is this something they still would have voted for"

good point but they dint bargin on mps that wanted to stay in having to negotiate the way out , bearing in mind the eu demanded we shell out billions to secure the divorce then through in the irish boarder to completely f**k the job up , your right the average jo n the street didnt see that coming , nor apparently did parliament

The EU is far from perfect. But the move to leave was pushed by economic falsehoods.

no i dont beleive that statement , , thats a statement from a money man your average jo who voted out isnt obsessed with the economy , just getting by from day to day

"Democracy is great. Just dont shit on your people by lying to them"
that goes both ways

Yes I am 21, ive said that. I just dont see what that has to do with this. 21 year olds are allowed have a view on politics too, and not all of us are like the love island crew.

Im not trying to prove im smarter than anyone, cause i really dont give a shit and im not a five year old with an im better than you mentality. If you take a problem with how i word things thats your problem. My head isnt as bloated as that i need the approval of strangers on the internet.

Im not too concerned about rees mogg or farage. They debate things for a living. Im not nor wont be a politician so i dont see how thats anything other than you just trying to make out im a gobshite

Im not trying to make out leavers are stupid. We're here to talk about brexit and im presenting one side of the argument.

If you want this to descend into shit slinging and just to attack me personally, thats fine. Call me a few names while youre at it if you like. Despite what you might think, i am a big boy now, i can handle it
 
I thought the real life implications of brexit might be fairly bad but jesus I wish they would just do it now so we would all be able to stop reading this shite.
Pure TFF stuff
its just dragging on and on , and because thieve ruled out no deal were going to end up with some wishy washy deal that everyone is going to hate and it wont do anyone any good , still the remoaners will be able to say i told you so , but it will be there doing
 
Fascinating. Of course it depends on what your idea if a little sovereignty is . You could look at as you've just lost 1000sapon 1000s of men women and children fighting off the might of Europe then 70 years down the line you leave the back door open and they get in anyway
I sometimes wonder if your just replying to this thread because you want to stir up trouble and desperate to see the UK fail ,the glee you have when you talk about it is shocking . Despite the fact it looks like the RoI will be the next biggest losers. Of course the reality is your 21 still wet behind the ears yet . Sure you can dig out the numbers but some would tell you theres more to life than money

money won't buy you happiness but you can sure be miserable if you haven't got enough of it.

When you refer to the war time spirit and Britain 'not being broken', this would seem to be a tacit admission that the kind of extreme (no deal) brexit you want would damage the uk economically. So i would ask as a genuine question, what do you expect to gain from brexit, and what price are you prepared to pay to get this prize? Would you still want to go through with it if you knew it would cost you your job? if you were running your own business, would you be prepared to see that business go under if that's what it took to deliver brexit?

It's all very well to say 'we know there would be consequences to brexit' when those consequences are abstract and for some other poor sod to face, so why don't we set a base line for what you think would be a reasonable consequence for getting what you want? (I would also disagree with the idea that the majority of people who voted leave did so knowing it would make them worse off, when leave was explicitly promoted as beneficial to the countr, with no mention what so ever
 
Bit disappointed with your last paragraph , the constant banging the drum that all leavers are , thick ,racists or whatever isn't helpful, and just because the figures arnt adding up in your head doesn't make it wrong . Not everything in black and white makes sense and like I said before theres more to life than money .

Well you've got me there it is a snide comment i'll admit. though it's one made in exasperation at the level of the debate here, and it doesn't imply that all leavers are thick racists, which i've already said categorically is not the case.

the moral high ground does somewhat crumble under your own feet however when you go on to personally attack other posters like @Kieran97 , purely because he's come up with a counter argument to yours and supported it with facts and evidence. I would suggest that if you disagree with him, find some evidence of your own to counter his rather than attack him personally, if you can't find such evidence, well that really ought to tell you something.

On a side note I always think people have an alternative motive for the way they vote , would I be right in thinking that when we leave and theres a bit of a squeeze in everyone's pocket some things might go on the back burner , like putting food on the table more important than spending a bit more on more niche upmarket products that are more "ethically " produced ?

Excellent use of quotation marks to throw shade there ;) But no, my concern with brexit making people poorer is that well, people will be poorer, and that won't be a good thing for anyone, it's also likely to hit the most vulnerable in society worst of all.

From a personal perspective. brexit has already had a detrimental effect on my business, my milk buyer has previously balanced fluctuations in supply and demand of organic milk by exporting raw milk to France and cheese to the USA, because of the real prospect of leaving with no deal this spring, they couldn't plan forward to do these things because in the event of no deal, we wouldn't have been able to do either, this has meant we've had to make other less effective contingencies which in turn have resulted in a lower milk price. Small beer, but it's a situation that's been replicated for 1000's of companies around the UK.
 
From a personal perspective. brexit has already had a detrimental effect on my business, my milk buyer has previously balanced fluctuations in supply and demand of organic milk by exporting raw milk to France and cheese to the USA, because of the real prospect of leaving with no deal this spring, they couldn't plan forward to do these things because in the event of no deal, we wouldn't have been able to do either, this has meant we've had to make other less effective contingencies which in turn have resulted in a lower milk price. Small beer, but it's a situation that's been replicated for 1000's of companies around the UK.
So true and now getting sad to watch from afar even with the jaundiced eyes of an ex colony.
I don't feel it is my place to shout about Brexit and its utter stupidity as I don't want to fall out with any members especially those from the North who voted Brexit, so I don't post here as much as I would like, but I have to now and again.
A hard Brexit will lead to the breakup of the UK, (Scotland gone inside 10 years, and a united Ireland inside 20), London shrinking, (already dropped from the biggest financial capital to 3rd in the world and dropping fast), the UK economy will tank and the IMF will have to bail it out within 5 years of a hard Brexit.
I can not believe that MPs are still more interested in party politics and self promotion than the countries interest, how has there not been a national government formed?
 
So true and now getting sad to watch from afar even with the jaundiced eyes of an ex colony.
I don't feel it is my place to shout about Brexit and its utter stupidity as I don't want to fall out with any members especially those from the North who voted Brexit, so I don't post here as much as I would like, but I have to now and again.
A hard Brexit will lead to the breakup of the UK, (Scotland gone inside 10 years, and a united Ireland inside 20), London shrinking, (already dropped from the biggest financial capital to 3rd in the world and dropping fast), the UK economy will tank and the IMF will have to bail it out within 5 years of a hard Brexit.
I can not believe that MPs are still more interested in party politics and self promotion than the countries interest, how has there not been a national government formed?

It's a touchy subject allright. From my view point they are a little bit like the primary school bully on his first week in secondary school.
No offence meant to anyone on here.
 
No deal is estimated to shrink gdp by 10-12% or more.

Irish gdp shrank by 11% from 2006 to 2009 and there's lots of individuals here who would be better informed than me to tell us how bad those years were.

We also tripled national debt in 8 years. While we're reducing national debt at the minute, there's still 200 billion to be tackled. Thats about 40000 euros for every man woman and child in ireland.

The uk is in a slightly better position, about 27000 for every man woman and child. But their debt is going up instead of down.

It'll be a long time before it effects us cause things are hunky dory at the minute. The government can keep borrowing cause interest rates are low. If japan keeps going the way they're going, all of government revenue will be spent on just paying the interest on their debt by 2041. This will cause major problems.

Might not even bite me in the arse, but unless something is done, the generation after us will have a big problem on their hands.
 
So true and now getting sad to watch from afar even with the jaundiced eyes of an ex colony.
I don't feel it is my place to shout about Brexit and its utter stupidity as I don't want to fall out with any members especially those from the North who voted Brexit, so I don't post here as much as I would like, but I have to now and again.
A hard Brexit will lead to the breakup of the UK, (Scotland gone inside 10 years, and a united Ireland inside 20), London shrinking, (already dropped from the biggest financial capital to 3rd in the world and dropping fast), the UK economy will tank and the IMF will have to bail it out within 5 years of a hard Brexit.
I can not believe that MPs are still more interested in party politics and self promotion than the countries interest, how has there not been a national government formed?
I disagree about the break up, uk will stay together I hope
 
I disagree about the break up, uk will stay together I hope
If the electorate of a union of nations decides that unions of nations are a bad thing then it doesn't augur well for the integrity of the union of nations.
Or an other way of looking at it is if nationalism is the way forward why will it miraculously stop at your ideal borders, the genie is now out of the bottle.
 
This may have been discussed here before, but I was reading an article about the replacement for CAP post Brexit. It won't come in til 2021, and will be an ongoing process til 2027. After that, now i may be open to correction on this, but my understanding is long term the plan is to phase out payments altogether.

Instead of land area, the payment will be based on "environmental impact" according to Michael Gove. I was curious about the concept after reading the article online, but there's very little info to be had. I haven't made my mind up on it, but it sounds like it will be more stringent than CAP.

It could actually work quite well; a more you put into it the more you get out of it philosophy.

The big farmers will appear to be the big losers. Anyone getting over £150000 a year will be cut 25%. Up to £30000 will be losing 5%. Seems it will ultimately benefit the small farmer.

Anyone on the other side of the water able to enlighten us?



https://www.theguardian.com/environ...reward-uk-farmers-for-adopting-green-policies

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/
 
If the electorate of a union of nations decides that unions of nations are a bad thing then it doesn't augur well for the integrity of the union of nations.
Or an other way of looking at it is if nationalism is the way forward why will it miraculously stop at your ideal borders, the genie is now out of the bottle.

The polls, (while not always something to go by) have shown the support for Scottish independence has dropped since 2014. It will all depend on how brexit turns out
 
If the electorate of a union of nations decides that unions of nations are a bad thing then it doesn't augur well for the integrity of the union of nations.
Or an other way of looking at it is if nationalism is the way forward why will it miraculously stop at your ideal borders, the genie is now out of the bottle.
Wales and England voted to leave the European Union
 
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