CAP 2020

Discussion in 'Talking Point' started by muckymanor, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised that there's no thread on this, maybe there is and I have missed it. It should be a hot topic, but there's so much else going on around us that it has been a little overshadowed. We should not let it be overshadowed. It's important that we have a say in it.

    Looking at some of the proposals.

    I'm in favour of the way that it's going, but I know that not everybody will be.
    Cuts for farmers with entitlements valued above €260. I have got significantly less than this as do other members of my family, so hopefully we won't get less, and maybe we will gain.

    Environmental aspects. I think that a cap payment which is weighted towards environmental actions will benefit us also.

    I have one idea that I would like to see in CAP payments. That is, a system which will be encouraging to farmers who we would currently describe as armchair farmers as well as retired farmers who are staying in the game to claim their sfp to put their land into forestry. It goes against every bone in my body, but the reality is that we need to take big tracts of land out of animal production and put it into something else such as forestry. If we don't do this, then there isn't going to be much of a future for suckler or beef farmers. We need a system which will phase these farmers out over the next number of years. This will also help to meet tree planting targets for climate action.

    Mine's a very small few points on CAP. What's your views on CAP??
     
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  2. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

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    I was at a tillage conference run by Liffey Mills last night. One of the speakers raised what I thought was a very valid point and that was CAP shouldn't be used to enforce greening measures such as forestry as it's primary and historical purpose is and was for food security. He said that if the EU wants farmers to plant forestry or make other changes to benefit the environment then there should be extra money allocated for that instead of taking money off CAP and then telling farmers if they do this and that they'll get a greening top up when in fact it's no top up at all.
     
  3. ts115

    ts115 Well-Known Member

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    The biggest pain for me that I'd like to see gone is the 2/3 crop rule!
     
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  4. JohnBoy

    JohnBoy Well-Known Member

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    The key word there is historical, food security was solved a long time ago. and the CAP gets revised as the political requirements change, interesting history here, I didnt realise it dates from the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy
     
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  5. 6600

    6600 Well-Known Member

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    From what I heard from someone who was in Brussels recently is that there will be two new aims.
    Intensive farms will be encouraged to grow some of their own crops, presumably with lower organic N limits or more restrictive derogation rules.
    Something will be done so the current armchair generation won't carry the payment entitlement into the next round.

    We have enough of state paid trees and the resultant expensive land.
     
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  6. TAFKAT

    TAFKAT Well-Known Member

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    Only a man with 2 farms would come out with a statement like that. Agricultural land is way overpriced as it is and any young farmers who want to either strike out on their own or expand an existing holding are finding it next to impossible to compete with large well established units. Taking land out of production permanently isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to beef prices, if it can't be sourced in Europe in will be got cheaper somewhere else to meet the demand, all it will do is make farmable land scarcer and therefore even more expensive. If these armchair or retired farmers don't want to make use of their land themselves then there should be good incentives for them to let someone else have a crack at it, the current tax breaks for long-term leasing should be extended and also include some kind of relief to allow the person actually farming the land to buy it outright at the end of the lease. Planting trees for climate action is a scam, wait til the big multi-nationals start buying up all the forestry to "reduce their carbon footprint" or whatever other jargon their PR departments come up with and then see how good an idea it is.
     
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  7. 6600

    6600 Well-Known Member

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    Amen, Coillte is the biggest landowner in the country and is the next FAI, Rehab imo.
     
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  8. kverneland es 80

    kverneland es 80 Well-Known Member

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    that has started already i am involved in a 650 acre forest with the guts of 30 yrs, recently we were approached by a company looking to lease the land for 25 yrs for the carbon footprint, we would still be able to clearfell and replant. we kicked it to touch for the moment but we were not the only ones approached
     
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  9. Carrigogunnell

    Carrigogunnell Well-Known Member

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    So instead of super milking farms we will all come together to have super timber farms, work full time and still become arm chair farmers?
     
  10. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

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    Food security has been solved for now but if the current poor returns remain in place and the EU continues to cut farm payments how long until the EU discovers it can't feed itself?.
     
  11. JohnBoy

    JohnBoy Well-Known Member

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    quite a long time I'd imagine.

    if poor returns cause a sufficient reduction in supply to worry the EU prices would have risen significantly which would prompt a recovery in supply. given the level of food exports from the EU it will take a long time to suffer food security issues caused by poor returns.
     
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  12. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

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    And in the meantime all the small family operations that are supposed to be so important will be gone to the wall. Ah I suppose I shouldn't care really but it does annoy me that farmers rose to the challenge of providing the best quality food in huge quantities and now they've done it shite is their thanks from the consumer and big business.
     
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  13. TAFKAT

    TAFKAT Well-Known Member

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    That's kinda the complete opposite of what I said:scratchhead:
     
  14. JohnBoy

    JohnBoy Well-Known Member

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    That's why the focus of the CAP has evolved from food security to income support and rural development.
     
  15. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, you don't know what I have. But I can tell you that what I own was worked hard for and I will be paying for it for a long time to come.

    There's no point in making land available for young farmers if there isn't an income to be made from it. If everybody goes into dairy then it won't be long going to the wall either.

    Planting trees is a good option for marginal land and a huge proportion of the land currently being farmed by suckler farmers or by armchair farmers is marginal land. In many of these areas, the reason why people can't buy land is that there is a better return from trees. If a certain amount of this land was taken out of cattle production then we would see less suckler cattle being produced. It wouldn't lead to an increase in dairy either. Less cattle could lead to better prices.

    If you read some of the stuff that I posted about forestry in the past, you will know that I have been very much against forestry. I'm not hugely in favour of it still, but I don't see much of a future for farmers in this area unless there is a big cut in production. Many farmers on marginal land are only keeping cattle for the subsidies. They have little care about whether they make money from their animals. This has a big impact on mart prices and affects the prices of animals for those of us who don't have big subsidies and rely on cattle or sheep sales in order to make some money - something which has become increasingly more difficult with every passing year.
     
  16. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing wrong with forestry when individual farmers plant their own land. They continue to live in the area and they contribute to the local economy. When forestry companies come in to buy land and hoover up the grants. That's where the problems with forestry arise. We have neighbouring forestry which is owned by pension funds. The house is boarded up. All of the money that is grown on the land as trees is sucked out of the parish, the county, and maybe even the country.
     
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  17. TAFKAT

    TAFKAT Well-Known Member

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    There isn't a separate CAP for Leitrim. If you make it attractive for unproductive landowners to plant forestry for easy money then that's what they'll do, whether it's 20 acres of bog in the west of Ireland or 150 acres of prime land in the south-east, and you can multiply that all across Europe. I'd sooner see young farmers have access to land and let them decide for themselves whether they can make money from it, young minds fresh ideas and all that. If there are no young farmers coming through then there is no farming within a generation. It's all fine and well saying individual farmers can plant their land and still live in the area and contribute to the local economy, what happens when that generation die out? There's nothing there for the next generation only a subsidy they can draw from their penthouse in London if they so wish. It's a very short-sighted attitude, agricultural commodity prices may well recover as the world population and demand increases, but not to the extent that it would be viable to reclaim large areas of forestry. You also say farmers on marginal land are only keeping cattle for the subsidies and can afford to pay more because they're not depending on making money from them, I've heard the exact same thing said numerous times about part-time farmers, I've also heard it said that married farmers have an unfair advantage at the mart because they can use their spouse's money to fund their purchases, all kinds of oddball theories, at the end of the day it always boils down to "everyone else should be producing less so I can produce more". How about everyone produces less, on more land, in a more sustainable manner? Would that not tick all your boxes?
     
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  18. ptfarmer

    ptfarmer Well-Known Member

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    All I'm sure about is that market distorting subs are not the answer
     
  19. nashmach

    nashmach Well-Known Member

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    Firstly It was mentioned here In this post with a presentation from a Teagasc event.

    I'm concerned about It as a tillage farmer, I believe that we are the ones being sold out again to provide the greening aspect and this time with little or No incentives compared to currently.

    I'm also concerned about convergence. We have already got cut last time on a small acreage but luckily farm growth has mitigated Some of that. There are plenty of others with entitlement only just over the average which this is going to impact. It does not sit easy with me where this money Is going.

    I'm concerned we are also going to create another forgotten young farmer class with The way things Are going.

    I'm also concerned that this Is going To create major division between part time And full time farmers again which Will Be quietly settled while people Will remain infatuated with the high CAP payments which In The overall scheme Are next To irrelevant.

    The biggest issue Is that The overall CAP budget Is going To drop And How That filters through.

    We Are Also going To Have a commissioner who Is Not going To Be favourable To Ireland let's face It.

    I'm beginning To wonder Will It even Be ready To roll out In 2021 :scratchhead:
     
  20. nashmach

    nashmach Well-Known Member

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    The same can also Be said for tax breaks For forestry :scratchhead:
     
  21. Kieran97

    Kieran97 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not to far from mucky and am in the position of having both farm land and planted land. I don't agree with your statement @TAFKAT on unproductive landowners. There are some unproductive landowners alright planting, but I don't feel it's fair to pass judgement on the marginalised ground around myself and @muckymanor without ever having had to farm it.

    My parents idea behind planting about 30 acres of our land was that for a lot of it, it was the only viable option. What other option was there for the 1.5 and 2 acre fields of rushes miles away from us? One field was 0.3 of an acre. Sell up was the alternative, and I don't see any farmer young or old making a living from fragmented pieces like that. You have to be realistic. The majority of the farm, we continue to farm. Anything that wouldn't generate an income was planted, to alllow it to generate an income. The premium ends the year my father gets the pension. The timber crop will be an income for myself, and then whatever may come of the land then, we will see. It allows us to be productive farmers with the good land that we do have, and make a good effort of making an income from that. Not to be running around tending to gardens for the sake of it

    One forest, a research plot, is being thinned atm. I went in to clear whins and brambles from the entrance with the 6 ton track machine a fortnight ago, and bear in mind I'm used to driving a digger in the bog and I got it hard to stay afloat. What other option is there for ground like that?

    I agree with muckys point about contributing to the local economy. Forestry companies buying and planting land is a whole other matter.

    There are young farmers coming through around us. They make use of the good land here. What interest would they have in buying our rushes? Nor what interest would I have in trying to farm it.
     
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  22. 6600

    6600 Well-Known Member

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    That's communism, comrade!
     
  23. TAFKAT

    TAFKAT Well-Known Member

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    I think you're missing the point to be fair. I have no problem with anyone planting forestry if that's what they want to do. I certainly have no problem with it if it's the most sensible way to generate an income from that particular piece of ground. What I do have a problem with is putting incentives in place for people to plant land rather than see it farmed productively by either themselves or somebody else. As I said already the CAP isn't just for certain parts of the country, and one man's idea of marginal land isn't necessarily the same as the next, if there are incentives there to plant land then land will be planted no matter what the quality. You ask any forestry company what kind of land they would prefer for planting, marginal is bottom of the list.

    Just as an aside, that's a picture of where I grew up, everything inside the red line is planted forestry and the line runs along the boundary so I do have some idea what I'm talking about.

    forestry boundary.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  24. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you get my point. Forestry planting is set to double annually from 2020 to 2025. This is a given. The government are going to grant aid it. If farmers don't plant their own land, companies like the pension company that I mentioned above are going to come in and buy up land to put into trees. Not alone will this leave young farmers with no access to land, but it will see money grown as trees in an area being lost out of that area. At least if we can encourage farmers to plant their own land, it will keep rural houses lived in and it will keep money in rural areas.

    Its not just about Leitrim. To be fair I think that we are not going to see a huge increase in the number of acres annually planted here. There's too much resistance to it. There's objections to every bit of forestry being applied for. There are huge environmental factors being identified which prevent forestry. It's going to be in other counties that will start to see the impact of forestry which isn't owned and managed by local farmers if we don't incentivise farmers to plant their own land.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  25. JohnBoy

    JohnBoy Well-Known Member

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    I'd have said socialism myself.

    And from a socialist perspective the cap money is well spent. How much sfp do farmers retain each year? Very little on average. Most of it goes to merchants, contractors, builders, garages etc. It keeps entire rural economies alive.

    The farmer is just administering the final grant payouts.


    Grant schemes are the same. They're not giving money to farmers, they're giving it to all the businesses.
     
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