CE marking, and the new laws.....

IrishSteel said:
You are treating yourself like a village idiot. I stated if you have weld qualifications you can put up your own shed, READ S101
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So effectively what you are saying for all intents and purposes a farmer cannot fabricate structural steelwork for his own use because according to S101 you would have to have your welding approved and tested according to EN ISO 9606-1:2013.
 
Looking at the regs below it looks like the rules mainly apply to "Grant Aided" buildings and/or bought in buildings over a certain size

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A. STRUCTURAL SPECIFICATION FOR INDIVIDUAL DESIGNS

A.1 GENERAL BUILDING REQUIREMENTS

A.1.1 Building Certification

Were steel frame work is manufactured by a contactor it needs to be CE Marked and have a Declaration of Performance. All steel frame structures shall be CE marked and produced in a plant certified by a Notified body (e.g. NSAI or equivalent), to manufacture structural steel frames in accordance with IS EN 1090. A Declaration of Performance shall be supplied for each building, by the certified steel frame manufacturer. The contractor must be certified to EN 1090-1, even in cases where the steel frame is manufactured on site. The building contractor shall be certified to, at least, execution class 1 under IS EN 1090.

Where the building is being grant-aided, and the applicant manufactures the steel frame themselves, then the applicant shall submit up-to-date certificates of welding competence in accordance with EN ISO 9606-1:2013. The certificate shall cover both butt welds and fillet welds in the flat and horizontal positions.

Where there is either no Declaration of Performance, or welding certificates the building will be considered NOT to be in compliance with this specification.

A.1.2 Buildings outside of S.101

Where it is desired to construct a building with an eave height greater than that specified in the relevant section or with a roof slope outside the specified range or where the span is greater than specified, then a full set of design drawings (including details of steel sizes and joint details) and full structural calculations for the entire building shall be prepared by a Chartered Engineer, and given to this Department for prior approval before the start of construction. The design of the building shall be in accordance with IS EN 1993: Eurocode 3: Design of steel structures and any other relevant Eurocode. Loadings shall be to IS EN 1991, concrete structure shall be to IS EN 1992, composite structure shall be in accordance with IS EN 1994, timber structures shall be to IS EN 1995 and masonry structures shall be to IS EN 1996.
 
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IrishSteel said:
Any steel building is classed as a structure and requires CE. The Department enforce it by stating if they are paying for it, it must be built to the regulations.
Because the Farmer is the end user, yea he can once he has the welding qualification he can do it himself.
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But what if they (the Department) are not paying for it?
 
IrishSteel said:
Any steel building is classed as a structure and requires CE. The Department enforce it by stating if they are paying for it, it must be built to the regulations.
Because the Farmer is the end user, yea he can once he has the welding qualification he can do it himself.
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What is the minimum size steel structure which needs to be CE marked?
 
IrishSteel said:
The Law is taken from;
  • S.I. 225/2013 makes it a criminal offence not to comply and allows fines of up to €500,000 and/or 3 months imprisonment to manufacture a steel structure and place it on the market.

    Farmers can make their own shed wore they have the relevant qualifications for welding.
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The above says it's an offence to manufacture and then place it on the market I.e. Place it for sale.

However the above extract does not say farmer has to have a welding qualification if he is manufacturing it for his own use?
 
Ptk44 said:
The above says it's an offence to manufacture and then place it on the market I.e. Place it for sale.

However the above extract does not say farmer has to have a welding qualification if he is manufacturing it for his own use?
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That wasn't understanding too
 
IrishSteel said:
The Law is taken from;
  • S.I. 225/2013 makes it a criminal offence not to comply and allows fines of up to €500,000 and/or 3 months imprisonment to manufacture a steel structure and place it on the market.

    Farmers can make their own shed wore they have the relevant qualifications for welding.
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IrishSteel said:
You are correct and that can be argued but some insurance companies argue or will argue on a claim that the fabricator, farmer or engineering company should be qualified. Not only the insurance companies but Council Enforcement and H&S Authority also.
It has not been tested, dont know what the outcome would be.
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. Your first quote above was inferring that by law a farmer had to have relevant qualifications for welding.

The second quote is an entirely different point about insurability of buildings and H&S aspects were the building to be structurally deficient.

With respect

We need information represented as fact on here to be accurate so that we can all benefit from sharing.

No problem with people expressing opinions either but it should be clear that that is what they are.
 
Ptk44 said:
. Your first quote above was inferring that by law a farmer had to have relevant qualifications for welding.

The second quote is an entirely different point about insurability of buildings and H&S aspects were the building to be structurally deficient.

With respect

We need information represented as fact on here to be accurate so that we can all benefit from sharing.

No problem with people expressing opinions either but it should be clear that that is what they are.
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Well said.
 
Ptk44 said:
. Your first quote above was inferring that by law a farmer had to have relevant qualifications for welding.

The second quote is an entirely different point about insurability of buildings and H&S aspects were the building to be structurally deficient.

With respect

We need information represented as fact on here to be accurate so that we can all benefit from sharing.

No problem with people expressing opinions either but it should be clear that that is what they are.
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Hear Hear
 
Deligates from IASF met with Dr. Robert Leonard from the Departmentn Of Agriculture this week.



From the meeting it was made quite clear that any Fabricator not in full possession of the current CE Marking EN1090 will not be eligable to undertake works associated with Grant Aid to farmers.

The Department Specification S101 for Farm Buildings should be completed by November of this year.

If you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact us. Copied and pasted from Irish Association of Steel Fabricators website, it would seem to suggest that the relevant qualifications are for grant aided buildings.
 
IrishSteel said:
I was initially asked by you or someone else on grant and S101, thats where I stated weld quals were required.
I did state that respect to buildings without grant aid, it is not been tested but some insurance companies will insist or argue on payout and again this has not been tested.
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It may seem like we're having a go at you but when you come on here making big claims about working with gardai and local enforcement seeking out rogue traders around the country and shutting them down and offer no kind of evidence I'm sorry but I'll have to call it bullshit. You refuse to answer any questions asked that you do not like and instead seem to be attempting to drum up some business for yourself on the ce marking side, alls I can say is you have a funny way of running your business. The minute someone starts running down the opposition yet offer no evidence to substantiate their claims would turn me right off dealing with that person/business.
While I believe it would be no harm to have an organisation such as yourselves to represent steel fabricators on a larger table I don't think I will be joining your organisation as you deal in to many half truths and lies.
CE marking should be a positive move forward for the industry but it's like anything without enforcement it is absolutely useless. Until non ce complying businesses are made an example of it and prosecuted it will continue to be the biggest single problem facing the industry and consumers alike as no one yet fully knows the legal ramifications of fabricating and for the consumer owning a building with no ce.
 
I don't know anything about the rules and regulations involved in fabrication but there are 5 or 6 very reputable firms that spring to mind straight away when I think of sheds in particular and I was surprised to see none of them featured on the list provided in the link. When I started to investigate a bit further this evening the first two I looked up clearly stated on their websites that they adhere to all the necessary regulations so I didn't bother looking any further.
 
Tippcon said:
I don't know anything about the rules and regulations involved in fabrication but there are 5 or 6 very reputable firms that spring to mind straight away when I think of sheds in particular and I was surprised to see none of them featured on the list provided in the link. When I started to investigate a bit further this evening the first two I looked up clearly stated on their websites that they adhere to all the necessary regulations so I didn't bother looking any further.
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as stated already this list on the "irishsteel" website is just a list of people "PE consultancy" have helped get ce certified.
id say i could find a list elsewhere of many other reputable companies who are also full ce certified.
 
jd-baz said:
as stated already this list on the "irishsteel" website is just a list of people "PE consultancy" have helped get ce certified.
id say i could find a list elsewhere of many other reputable companies who are also full ce certified.
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Company local to me and who would claim to be one of Ireland and the UK's leading CE certified structural steel manufacturers are not listed.
 
Arthur said:
Company local to me and who would claim to be one of Ireland and the UK's leading CE certified structural steel manufacturers are not listed.
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A number of companies are doing the certification. Some are certified by TUV Reinland etc. There are varying classes of execution, CE class 1, 2 etc.
From my understanding the department looks for the individual in question to be competent in welding and tested, e.g either a FAS or Arcs and Sparks welding course carried out and then coded by a certified body, WIS Ltd. or Metlab or a similar certified body who can xray the weld for the relevant process and to the relevant standard and code the welder.

Building Certification
Were steel frame work is manufactured by a contactor it needs to be CE Marked and have a Declaration of Performance.
All steel frame structures shall be CE marked and produced in a plant certified by a Notified body (e.g. NSAI or equivalent), to manufacture structural steel frames
inaccordance with IS EN 1090. A Declaration of Performance shall be supplied for each building, by the certified steel frame manufacturer. The contractor must be certified to EN 1090-1, even in cases where the steel frame is manufactured on site. The building contractor shall be certified to, at least, execution class 1 under IS EN 1090.

Where the building is being grant-aided, and the applicant manufactures the steel framethemselves, then the applicant shall submit up-to-date certificates of welding competence in accordance with EN ISO 9606-1:2013.
The certificate shall cover both butt welds and fillet welds in the flat and horizontal positions.
Where there is either no Declaration of Performance, or welding certificates the building will be considered NOT to be in compliance with this specification.
 
I am CE certified to EX3 and not on the IASF list. From the what we have had to do and reading of the Dept's S101, it would seem if you used CE certified steel (i.e. it comes from stockholder with relevant paperwork), and you can pass welding tests, then you can make your own shed. The only snag being you need a calibrated welding plant and samples of your work (it should be the type of material that you intend to make the shed from) have been passed non destructive and other weld tests, then you can go ahead. Its not exactly straightforward and you need a test passed in the material you intend to use, but possible. I am open to correction if I am wrong but that is my opinion of what I have read and we have to undertake to get our own qualification and factory control cert.
 
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