forestry as an investment

H

hopefull_farmer

Guest
im thinking of looking into planting half my farm in forrestry , according to the premium calculator on the SWS website , thirty acres can produce a payment of 7710 for broadleaves

anyone got an idea what kind of NET figure you would be left with per anum were you to employ a forrester to look after the crop on a yearly basis

i know down the line that money has to be spent on roads so as to provide access but lets park that for now

im attracted to the fact that you can still draw down a BPS payment
 
im thinking of looking into planting half my farm in forrestry , according to the premium calculator on the SWS website , thirty acres can produce a payment of 7710 for broadleaves

anyone got an idea what kind of NET figure you would be left with per anum were you to employ a forrester to look after the crop on a yearly basis

i know down the line that money has to be spent on roads so as to provide access but lets park that for now

im attracted to the fact that you can still draw down a BPS payment

What sort of broadleaves are you considering as from my own experience I'd advise against them, small cost to look after a forest as there is very little input up to year 15, you can get advice for free by going to forestry related events. the premium you get is so called tax free but liable for USC.
 
Would be more inclined to go mixed forestry if you are serious. Spruce would look after itself. Broadleave trees take more effort. If i was planting tomorrow i would look after it myself. I have 45 acres of forestry and the company that planted it got 5k a year to look after it for the first 5 years and all they did was spend one day a year in it with three lads with knapsack sprayers. It is my retirement fund if i live past 65 years.
 
Would be more inclined to go mixed forestry if you are serious. Spruce would look after itself. Broadleave trees take more effort. If i was planting tomorrow i would look after it myself. I have 45 acres of forestry and the company that planted it got 5k a year to look after it for the first 5 years and all they did was spend one day a year in it with three lads with knapsack sprayers.

sounds like it costs half the premia to pay someone to look after it
 
I would go all Sitka as well, no maintenance, and all thinning etc done by machine. Ash is prone to Canker as well as the dieback disease, sycamore is shite.
Either way, if broadleafs arent carefully managed, pruned/shaped etc, you end up with firewood.
 
I would go all Sitka as well, no maintenance, and all thinning etc done by machine. Ash is prone to Canker as well as the dieback disease, sycamore is shite.
Either way, if broadleafs arent carefully managed, pruned/shaped etc, you end up with firewood.

premia is lower on sitka , the land is good enough to grow oak
 
I would go all Sitka as well, no maintenance, and all thinning etc done by machine. Ash is prone to Canker as well as the dieback disease, sycamore is shite.
Either way, if broadleafs arent carefully managed, pruned/shaped etc, you end up with firewood.

surely if you employed a skilled professional to maintain the crop , the likes of oak would be ok ?

from what ive read , sitka is more for marginal land
 
Sitka is fast growing though, you will be taking out thinnings not long after the premium finishes, oak is for the next generation.
 
I would go all Sitka as well, no maintenance, and all thinning etc done by machine. Ash is prone to Canker as well as the dieback disease, sycamore is shite.
Either way, if broadleafs arent carefully managed, pruned/shaped etc, you end up with firewood.
Spot on Mike, ash is just firewood and a few hurley butts after 25 + years.
surely if you employed a skilled professional to maintain the crop , the likes of oak would be ok ?

from what ive read , sitka is more for marginal land

What income will you have from oak after 15 years of premium, slowest maturing wood possible, as said Sitka is effectively nil maintenance, a thinning at 17- 20 years will yield a mix of pulpwood and pallett board which will leave a small profit, subsequent thinnings will yield increasing amounts of commercial timber but still small value until clearfell which if you are lucky will be 30-35 years, better ground will grow better timber.
 
ive much to learn if im serious about this , i want to maximise premium on an anual basis but also maxamise the value of the end product , the land is good , not golden vale good but fertile
 
premia is lower on sitka , the land is good enough to grow oak

If the land is good enough to grow oak , why on earth would you consider planting it ?

Let it out on a long term lease . Tax benefits, and it will looked after, by someone who needs it.

If it's poor land, then that's a different story.
 
If the land is good enough to grow oak , why on earth would you consider planting it ?

Let it out on a long term lease . Tax benefits, and it will looked after, by someone who needs it.

If it's poor land, then that's a different story.

That is exactly my thoughts @jf850. Have seen plenty of good land planted and it was only after the deed was done people realised their was far more valuable ways of doing things with it than planting it. Plus at the end of the day when its planted very hard to ever bring it back to farm land again.
 
There are forestry companys that will give you free advice. If your anyway near kilkenny there a forestry company with an office in the mart.

Its a pity to plant good land allright but thats up to you.
 
That is exactly my thoughts @jf850. Have seen plenty of good land planted and it was only after the deed was done people realised their was far more valuable ways of doing things with it than planting it. Plus at the end of the day when its planted very hard to ever bring it back to farm land again.

You have to get permission to go back, including a environmental impact assessment, so thats way from a foregone conclusion.

Personally I think its a sin to afforest good land when so many farmers desperate for land and happy to pay a good return
 
That is exactly my thoughts @jf850. Have seen plenty of good land planted and it was only after the deed was done people realised their was far more valuable ways of doing things with it than planting it. Plus at the end of the day when its planted very hard to ever bring it back to farm land again.

You could sell the good land and buy twice as much poor land to plant???
 
That is exactly my thoughts @jf850. Have seen plenty of good land planted and it was only after the deed was done people realised their was far more valuable ways of doing things with it than planting it. Plus at the end of the day when its planted very hard to ever bring it back to farm land again.

Once it's planted , it may stay under forestry for all time. I have come to hate the sight of forestry. I am locked up with TB for the 3rd time in 3 years. 2 cows in a test 1 St time, then 2 clear 60 day tests, 1 clear 6 math check test, and a. 1 1/2 yo heifer down in next 6 math test. 2 clear tests , and just before 6 mth check test, a cow showed lesions in factory. Tested yesterday, reading Monday, hope it goes right way. Badgers would talk to you around here. 3 different people planted 15 acres each back 6 or 7 yrs ago. Some of it was the finest of land. An 'armchair ' farmer , now in her 70s planted a good 6 acre moor, directly across a small river from me, I offered to buy it , but it was declined. She also planted strips of 3 fields , along the bounds, so that she wouldn't have to pay to fence it herself. A right nature corridor it is.
It's back to the same thing, if a person had to hand over their land, if they want to get the Old Age Pension , their would be far greater mobility of land to those young people who actually want to farm it, before the fire is gone out of their bellies . It's gone this 30 years out of a lot of these 80 year olds.
Drawing pensions, forestry premiums, SFPs, and running a few cattle around as well as selling meadows. If you wanted to rent a field properly off them, "No I can't , it would knock about my SFP", but if you give me €250 an acre I might think about it. They themselves never spent €20 an acre on a ton of lime !
 
Once it's planted , it may stay under forestry for all time. I have come to hate the sight of forestry. I am locked up with TB for the 3rd time in 3 years. 2 cows in a test 1 St time, then 2 clear 60 day tests, 1 clear 6 math check test, and a. 1 1/2 yo heifer down in next 6 math test. 2 clear tests , and just before 6 mth check test, a cow showed lesions in factory. Tested yesterday, reading Monday, hope it goes right way. Badgers would talk to you around here. 3 different people planted 15 acres each back 6 or 7 yrs ago. Some of it was the finest of land. An 'armchair ' farmer , now in her 70s planted a good 6 acre moor, directly across a small river from me, I offered to buy it , but it was declined. She also planted strips of 3 fields , along the bounds, so that she wouldn't have to pay to fence it herself. A right nature corridor it is.
It's back to the same thing, if a person had to hand over their land, if they want to get the Old Age Pension , their would be far greater mobility of land to those young people who actually want to farm it, before the fire is gone out of their bellies . It's gone this 30 years out of a lot of these 80 year olds.
Drawing pensions, forestry premiums, SFPs, and running a few cattle around as well as selling meadows. If you wanted to rent a field properly off them, "No I can't , it would knock about my SFP", but if you give me €250 an acre I might think about it. They themselves never spent €20 an acre on a ton of lime !

Yea have seen the same around here myself. Hate it too. Hate the way all your points actually are right hate the way bar the testing i have been in more or less the same situatio myself. But unfortunately that is the way things are now at present and i don't think it's going to chabge anytime soon either:thumbdown::thumbdown:
 
I have a relative who bought a bit of land privately, off a neighbour. It was a small out farm a couple of miles away from both of them, in a remote hilly area, that was nearly all afforested . He gave about 5 years worth of premium, but in a lump sum to the owner. The planting grant covered that end. He is finished drawing his premium on it now, as it is just over 20 years ago, and different times when he bought it. He looks at it from the angle that, if he never had of the premiums, it will be a pension , that he hadn't to pay into, out of his own pocket at least.

This man met a man who was stuck, and they both knew it, hence land cost was small,

And it was poor land , fit for little else, and most importantly , was virtually surrounded by forestry. Not reasonable quality land , in an area of little forestry, a thing that cause a lot of friction with the neighbours.
 
If the land is good enough to grow oak , why on earth would you consider planting it ?

Let it out on a long term lease . Tax benefits, and it will looked after, by someone who needs it.

If it's poor land, then that's a different story.

well if let it out to someone else , id have to give up farming any of the land , i want to run cattle on half of it
 
You have to get permission to go back, including a environmental impact assessment, so thats way from a foregone conclusion.

Personally I think its a sin to afforest good land when so many farmers desperate for land and happy to pay a good return

im not sure forrestry should be blamed for the lack of land , i see countless farms which are owned by elderly farmers , its only used for a meadow of hay and then afterwards to run a few sheep on it for the year , awful lot of land under utilised
 
im not sure forrestry should be blamed for the lack of land , i see countless farms which are owned by elderly farmers , its only used for a meadow of hay and then afterwards to run a few sheep on it for the year , awful lot of land under utilised

I'm not placing blame 100% on forestry for land mobility issue. Plenty of other issues like yes age, urban sprawl, industrial development etc etc.

But as the lads say if its good land why not lease it out to a good young farmer who'll be happy to pay you a good lease with tax benefits? You'd get the same (or more money) and no getting involved in something you're not sure of :001_unsure:
 
I'm not placing blame 100% on forestry for land mobility issue. Plenty of other issues like yes age, urban sprawl, industrial development etc etc.

But as the lads say if its good land why not lease it out to a good young farmer who'll be happy to pay you a good lease with tax benefits? You'd get the same (or more money) and no getting involved in something you're not sure of :001_unsure:

i can get tax benefits from the forrestry route , the problem with leasing it out to another farmer for grazing is i cant continue to farm half of it , i plan to take up a driving job in the new year so calving down cows is not that convenient anyway , however , i think buying angus or hereford cattle at around seven months at this time of year , wintering them and then finishing them on grass would deliver as much as producing weanlings anyway , i also get to retain some of my ANC payment

ive been looking at the figures for forrestry more and it should match cattle farming economically long term

a lot of people appear idealogically opposed to forrestry , no wonder we have the lowest amount of land planted in europe , i dont see a shortage of land to produce beef the world over , i doubt beef producers in ireland will be rolling in it long term and i see farm land prices bar that for dairying falling in ireland , the fall in the price of land in the west is pretty startling the last few years , thats a reflection of the near non existance of dairying in the west , the only place where any real money can be made
 
What income will you have from oak after 15 years of premium, slowest maturing wood possible, as said Sitka is effectively nil maintenance, a thinning at 17- 20 years will yield a mix of pulpwood and pallett board which will leave a small profit, subsequent thinnings will yield increasing amounts of commercial timber but still small value until clearfell which if you are lucky will be 30-35 years better ground will grow better timber.

Don't know a whole lot about forestry but a forester I had looking at my own setup told me alot of Sitka grown in Ireland is real low grade stuff cos what you gain in earlier maturity(as it really bolts in our climate) you lose in timber quality. That and the fact its dead needles acidifies ground water so you won't get grant aid on certain sites is something to consider. Don't think Sitka plantations do much for the environment eithier as the ones round here support little more than vermin like Grey crows and foxes and are eerily quiet when you walk through them even in late spring/summer. Each to their own on this but personally I'd rather see land left unplanted then go under Sitka monoculture.
 
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