Glyphosate and potential ban

Mod note first:

I moved out the posts from the Winter Wheat thread as requested and I thought it was best to do so. If I have too many or not enough moved let me know.

I didn't really know what to call it either but stuck the above title on it as well, again if anyone has any comments let me know.

I'm not singling you out Louis but you raised some points above which I feel I must add too. Yes here does promote debate and discussion in particular once it is reasoned. Looking back through it the tone of your initial post probably did look like it was more 'man rather than the ball' so I can equally see why John was miffed by it.

But let's draw a line under it at that and move on.
 
Now back to Nashmach the part time tillage 'farmer'.

On the Roundup debate in general are we in danger of sitting too much on our laurels on this and expecting it to go away? Unfortunately it has gotten so much diddering in Europe in recent months that is not going to help.

Ithastopay touches on something (probably a new thread to be fair) and that is the future of tillage farming in general. When you look at it from an a chemistry point of view, we have lost certain types of slug pellets, Dursban, could lose MCPA and now possibly Roundup.

I know some I mentioned have had clear environmental risks/issues but if the low hanging fruit is picked what will happen next?? And could we be in a scenario soon with very little chemistry to help in crop protection?

The other point is we are insulated to an extent here in Ireland. Many are no more than two generations from the land. In other countries, it is cc a very remote connection. With the increasing remoteness comes ignorance or lack of knowledge in my view.

Even in our country, we have this in the national media too. Only lady night we had our main station reporting from a field of barley and a shiny new Lexion cutting it. Now no disrespect to the lads that own it or those who have similar on here, but will Joe Or Mary Bloggs really have sympathy for farmers when they see this mammoth machine in the news worth more than their house and a farmer lamenting prices?

PS: I know I had the same soapbox last year and the year before and the year before that too.
 
I have removed my replies to the Winter Wheat thread from this thread as I feel they are now out of context and did not post them on this thread.
I feel it is unfair that Jonny1's post and pics are now the opening post in this thread.
I am not trying to make your job even harder Mods and I am sorry if this does.
 
I have removed my replies to the Winter Wheat thread from this thread as I feel they are now out of context and did not post them on this thread.
I feel it is unfair that Jonny1's post and pics are now the opening post in this thread.
I am not trying to make your job even harder Mods and I am sorry if this does.

Sorry G, you are right I shouldn't have included the first few posts there and I moved them back. As I said I was unsure myself in general so glad you mentioned it. Nothing is too much work once the end result is okay.

On the posts respect your right to do that if you are not happy with it again the title probably doesn't truly reflect what it should :blushing:
 
Sorry G, you are right I shouldn't have included the first few posts there and I moved them back. As I said I was unsure myself in general so glad you mentioned it. Nothing is too much work once the end result is okay.

On the posts respect your right to do that if you are not happy with it again the title probably doesn't truly reflect what it should :blushing:
I don't envy your job, keep up the good work :boat: balance is not always easy or possible, I understand that this is as well under it's own thread, but my comments were more at home in the other and I thought they lost some of their context in the move.
 
I must say that that @jonny1 's post above is excellent, I might not agree with every morsel of it but I applaud him for the time, effort and research he put into making it. I also think @Louis mc has made some good points as have a number of others.
On the point of Glyphosate, maybe there needs to be more research done on it's effects, the hysteria surrounding it may or may not be justified but looking at it from Joe Soaps point of view all he sees is that there could be risk associated with it's use and the reports saying it is safe come from vested interests especially the conglomerate chemical companies who appear to care about nothing but the bottom line.
Jonny says he needs to spray off due to the trees and hedges surrounding his fields which leave an uneven ripening pattern and I can't for a moment argue with that as I don't know his ground but there are crops in big wide open fields with few trees and low hedges that are being sprayed off. I have seen this first hand on land which would be quite the opposite to Jonny's in that it would be light sandy ground and the crop would ripen naturally.
Even using it on OSR that is for fuel use could find it's way into the food chain as the cake by-product is used as an animal feed or at least was in the situation I was familiar with.
Going outside of Ireland, would spraying off be considered responsible in the likes of France, where there is a massive difference in the climate compared to here.
My opinion on the product is use it where it is absolutely necessary but at absolute minimal application rates.
If in doubt leave it out.
 
I think this is a great debate and funny enough is going on in our house this week as well. Last year we didn't spray and winter barley was high in moisture due to very uneven ripening (due itself to an ill-considered decision to shorten the top-link of the fertilizer because the crop was high on the last top dressing!). This year spring barley headlands would also benefit from spraying off and my father who worked in the agri-business for years just thinks we should get on with it. I must admit I am reluctant to do it both because it is a feed crop and also the risk of poor weather after spray off causing break down, but also I am not financially dependent on this crop or as they call us locally 'hobby farmers'. So if my complete livelihood was dependent on that crop I might make a very different decision and so I don't want to judge others that do use it.

But and this is my 2 issues:
1) around here many practise annual spraying off - it needs to be a considered decision not just automatically must spray it off every year.
2) if you do decide to spray off you must wait the time period before harvest. This year I saw alot of barley sprayed off and a sudden good spell of weather with fast ripening saw combines in.

Maybe what we need is a residue test for grain much like milk!
 
I think this is a great debate and funny enough is going on in our house this week as well. Last year we didn't spray and winter barley was high in moisture due to very uneven ripening (due itself to an ill-considered decision to shorten the top-link of the fertilizer because the crop was high on the last top dressing!). This year spring barley headlands would also benefit from spraying off and my father who worked in the agri-business for years just thinks we should get on with it. I must admit I am reluctant to do it both because it is a feed crop and also the risk of poor weather after spray off causing break down, but also I am not financially dependent on this crop or as they call us locally 'hobby farmers'. So if my complete livelihood was dependent on that crop I might make a very different decision and so I don't want to judge others that do use it.

But and this is my 2 issues:
1) around here many practise annual spraying off - it needs to be a considered decision not just automatically must spray it off every year.
2) if you do decide to spray off you must wait the time period before harvest. This year I saw alot of barley sprayed off and a sudden good spell of weather with fast ripening saw combines in.

Maybe what we need is a residue test for grain much like milk!

On your point number 2, this is why I said farmers need to be saved from themselves, too many of us are not responsible enough to be allowed use pre harvest, if it is used and then harvested before the harvest interval is up the farmer in question needs his professional user status removed and not allowed operate a sprayer again. We have an attitude in the industry of 'ah sure it'll be grand', this is the old way, we now need a proffesional, efficient and above reproach attitude where we can grow a product we can stand over and be proud of. This goes for all the food we grow on this green Island. We need to be better than everyone else. IMO??
 
I would also like to say well done to Jonny 1, I acknowledge he is doing nothing wrong at all and doing what I was doing only 12 months ago. Jonny back on topic for your meadow grass problem and for uneven ripening under trees I have a few thoughts and what im doing here.
1. Im joining glas and putting a 6m buffer on headland like this, also in reality they dont yield well, reduce sample quality/moisture, branches unseen by combine driver :sad2:, I think they may pay as well under glas or even just out of production in time like these.
2. We also chop alot of straw and this makes glyphosate post harvest difficult, if you need to control problem it needs bailing to clean, then spray can get to problem. I think within crop IPU is failing us so you should consider Flufanacet based product eg firebird as its great on meadowgrass. Also if you have access to any muck I always find meadowgrass worst in low fertility areas we have been spot treating these areas and meadow grass is greatly reduced in fact all but eliminated.

What Im really saying is we need to find ways that we can prevent pre harvest being required, this is the key, it may even mean a little less N or strob fungicides at last spray. Not put ourselves in a situation where the crop will not ripen. Prevention rather than cure and we can all work together to find this lads.

This conversation started a bit wrong but in doing so we have started a great debate, if there was more of them id be a more frequent visiter on here, we need to fight together lads no one else will support us. Farming aint boring!
 
Meadow grass is best controlled Pre Emerge with IPU if available and 1/4 the rate gives the same control as the full rate post emerge .
Stomp Agua at 1L / Ha will control AMG pre emerge . The Full rate is 2.9L/Ha .
 
Problem is ipu is going off the market, this is the last autumn of it so time to experiment a bit with other products for amg control.
 
2. We also chop alot of straw and this makes glyphosate post harvest difficult, if you need to control problem it needs bailing to clean, then spray can get to problem. I think within crop IPU is failing us so you should consider Flufanacet based product eg firebird as its great on meadowgrass. Also if you have access to any muck I always find meadowgrass worst in low fertility areas we have been spot treating these areas and meadow grass is greatly reduced in fact all but eliminated

Am I reading that right? You are spot treating areas with AMG with muck? If so that's a very interesting approach.
 
This conversation started a bit wrong but in doing so we have started a great debate, if there was more of them id be a more frequent visiter on here, we need to fight together lads no one else will support us. Farming aint boring!

On this point Always Thinking, that's why it is up to all members to help generate these views and stir debate!
 
i,ve been to 2 funerals this week , both in their early fifties and cancer deaths, if glyphosphate is linked to cancer or even potentially linked to it i think a partial ban until its proved one way or another is a small price to pay, thats whats important lads
 
i,ve been to 2 funerals this week , both in their early fifties and cancer deaths, if glyphosphate is linked to cancer or even potentially linked to it i think a partial ban until its proved one way or another is a small price to pay, thats whats important lads
What about salt, sugar, nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, mobile phones, talcum powder, lead, hair dyes, diesel fumes, asbestos, formaldehyde, and all the other everyday items that are linked to cancer or in your part of the world the proximity to Sellafield. Roundup has been around a long time now, there's no definitive link, you could draw a link between cancer and just about anything if you tried hard enough.
I agree there's a problem with reckless use of pre-harvest Round-up, I mentioned it on here a couple of times before, and I agree that the image portrayed by farmers of a green and environmentally friendly industry is more important now than ever. I saw a field beside a road that had been sprayed off being cut for silage lately and I thought it was sending out the wrong signals but I don't know the circumstances involved for the particular farmer. However I don't see the problem with the responsible use of chemicals as outlined by Jonny1 in particular. I have used pre-harvest Roundup myself if I thought it was necessary but never blanket sprayed as a matter of routine. Chemicals are a tool the same as any other, we'd all like to use less of them but it's important to have the option if needed. The lobby to ban Roundup won't stop there if they are successful, they'll just gain more and more traction and before we know where we are we'll be back to trying to find a tonne and a half of barley to the acre in between the thistles.
 
What about salt, sugar, nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, mobile phones, talcum powder, lead, hair dyes, diesel fumes, asbestos, formaldehyde, and all the other everyday items that are linked to cancer or in your part of the world the proximity to Sellafield. Roundup has been around a long time now, there's no definitive link, you could draw a link between cancer and just about anything if you tried hard enough.
I agree there's a problem with reckless use of pre-harvest Round-up, I mentioned it on here a couple of times before, and I agree that the image portrayed by farmers of a green and environmentally friendly industry is more important now than ever. I saw a field beside a road that had been sprayed off being cut for silage lately and I thought it was sending out the wrong signals but I don't know the circumstances involved for the particular farmer. However I don't see the problem with the responsible use of chemicals as outlined by Jonny1 in particular. I have used pre-harvest Roundup myself if I thought it was necessary but never blanket sprayed as a matter of routine. Chemicals are a tool the same as any other, we'd all like to use less of them but it's important to have the option if needed. The lobby to ban Roundup won't stop there if they are successful, they'll just gain more and more traction and before we know where we are we'll be back to trying to find a tonne and a half of barley to the acre in between the thistles.
with all the items above except diesel fumes i have a choice as to whether i use them or not i don,t have much option in what i eat except i go organic, i use roundup preharvest and all round the farm so i,m not some hippy but i,d be lying if i said it didn,t cross my mind about what i was doing sometimes, its not so long ago roundup was probably 5 times the price it is now and it was splashed around half as freely, like you say above responsible use is whats needed but how do you enforce that
 
Am I reading that right? You are spot treating areas with AMG with muck? If so that's a very interesting approach.
Yes, and it worked, as I said we tended to find meadow grass re appearing year on year in areas of low fertility. tried lime, extra p,k the works but all that worked was a very slowly moving dung spreader.
 
My opinion on this is we have had a serious warning shot here and if we don't change then we will be without glyphosphate.
We don't know whether or not it causes cancer but irrespective of this, the mere fact that chemical residues have shown up in the food chain as the result of farmers practicing a modern technique that we really don't need to do is enough to raise the eyebrows of the public. Throw a greeny stating that it's cancerous in to the mix and you have trouble, and should it ever be definitively proven that it causes cancer then we are in SERIOUS trouble.

Ireland produces 10% of the world's infant formula and thankfully we take our milk quality seriously. This is one of the main reasons the Irish infant formula is seen as a premium product. We have withdrawl periods for all sorts of products (eg. wormers) to ensure that residues of these products don't end up in the food chain. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE HARMFUL OR NOT.
A few years ago small traces of chlorine showed up in Irish dairy produce in Germany, it was no harm to anyone (we think!) but the processors here started testing milk samples for the chemical in order to get it out of the food chain as these things can cause trouble. It was a small percentage of bulk tanks had trouble rinsing and problem has been resolved.

If farmers persist in adding chemicals to their final product then we will have no one to blame but ourselves for a ban of such chemicals.
 
If this tallowamine part of the formulation of the cheaper products goes I presume this in turn will make it expensive again, anyone know???
 
Im a cynic but maybe this was the desired outcome in one way or another .
You may be onto something there, it's amazing how relaxed Monsanto seemed to be about the ban but maybe they knew that it would never be banned but that the formulation may have to change therefore getting rid of the generics who were blowing themselves out of the market and all of us referring back to the branded fancy stuff again....
 
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