Replace Ireland's beef herd with forestry

Discussion in 'Forestry' started by muckymanor, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,639
    http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news...ld-be-replaced-by-trees-is-nonsense-says-ifa/

    What's your view?

    My own is very simple and based on my own experience in my area.

    Forestry wipes out rural communities.

    A huge portion of government and EU grant aid goes to large companies who come in and buy up whole farms - local farmers cannot compete to buy land and expand. These grants were supposed to compensate individuals and families for growing trees and maintaining forests on their land. But in fact, these forestry grants only serve to reduce employment in rural areas.

    A lot of forestry in this country has been planted with no consideration as to how they will get the trees out in future. Many sites have very poor access due to the roads / laneways that they are on. Many are just planted for to claim the 20 year grant and no consideration has been given to what whppens beyond that. Currently we see lorries ploughing up rural byroads while they bring out forestry thinnings. My view is that those planting forestry should need to apply for a type of planning permission which considers the suitability of the site being planted, access, road network, and a plan for what happens in the future - before planning is granted to plant a certain plot of land.

    Finally, all of these sika forests don't do what other forests around the world do in terms of habitat. They provide very little food for wild animals because they are planted in such a way that from 8 years onwards, they block off all light to the forest floor. Nothing green only pine needles.

    Maybe I'm just disgruntled. In the last 25 years, 8 adjoining farms around us have been planted. Nobody lives on 7 of those farms now. That's 7 less families in 2 square miles. It appears that the powers that be want us all to live in cities.
     
  2. TMKF

    TMKF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    3,581
    Location:
    Cavan
    No you're not just disgruntled. Lots of farmers feel as you do, as a young farmer I agree completely. As someone whose into environmental stuff too I can tell you vast conifers are a very bad idea for biodiversity and long term the environment

    On the other hand, Ireland's climate change obligation isnt going away.
    We as farmers must take back that conversation from those with a wholly biased view (you would be amazed how much some of these people just hate farmers and meat for their own reasons not based on evidence).

    Farmers need to start demanding proper carbon accounting, that proper studies done on carbon removal into soil. An inventory of all the carbon already being sequestered by hedgerows (which take in carbon just like trees but grow faster!).

    The model currently being used favors high input farming not grass based efficient like we are

    To give you an idea of how unsettled things are: Teagasc research is showing we may have over estimated the release of the most potent GHG and it may be much lower than we thought!
     
    Tim818 likes this.
  3. nashmach

    nashmach Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    37,855
    Location:
    Wexford, Ireland
    It's just a D4 economist who had nothing to do on a Monday....

    Your post is spot on mucky.

    Some places that are being planted are just irresponsible. Don't know how they expect any thinning or clear felling to be done given the poor access.
     
  4. JOHNNY BOY

    JOHNNY BOY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,358
    Location:
    Central Mayo

    As a reasonably young farmer I too hate to see land been planted. I know some of the poorer land in the country would serve to give a higher income from forestry but even still it fcuk up future development for farm land expansion for progressive farmers.
    I can think of several locations where forestry has been planted where eight foot trailed mowers used to struggle to get too. So going by that what are the circumstances going to be like when they do eventually come to clearing it.
    Has anyone ever actually ever calculated what amount of harm is done to the environment by clearing hauling and processing of the forest pooed to the benefit of having it there in the first place.
    As for the government's climate and carbon responsibility would a major development of hedgerows throughout the entire country not be a far better solution.
    Water recycling on farms. Solar panels on shed roofs. Just a few suggestions there is lots of other possibilities that could be very easy to introduce without been to invasive to the areas concerned. Hell look at the damage the ggovernment's private jet does to the environment every time it takes off to bring one of them somewhere.
     
  5. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,639
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not against any farmer or farm family planting their land and maintaining that forestry. There are a few people across the country that have actually done this. Their salary is the forestry grant. It's providing for their families in a sustainable way and it keeps them living on the land.

    But in my experience, there are not many people like this. The vast majority of forest owners in our area are forestry companies or absentee farmers who were willed the land and have no interest in farming it. It's detrimental to the rural fabric, infrastructure and economy. The grants are just a squeeze by the government to try to achieve forestry targets and to try to achieve environment targets. But they push people out. They shouldn't be used to make MD's of forestry companies or townsfolk wealthier. They should be targeted to people who already live on the land in order to keep them living there.
     
  6. TMKF

    TMKF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    3,581
    Location:
    Cavan
    Yes, soil erosion and acidification along with biodiversity loss have all been observed both as conifers mature and after harvesting
    Broadleafs have less of this issue but also a lower return on investment

    It would make far far more sense. But first we'd need to know how much carbon is stored in biomass of hedgerows on farms
     
  7. Bog Man

    Bog Man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    7,664
    Location:
    Carlow
    [QUOTE=
    Has anyone ever actually ever calculated what amount of harm is done to the environment by clearing hauling and processing of the forest pooed to the benefit of having it there in the first place.

    I went to a fisheries course and they were concerned as they are now ripping up the stumps and chipping them and also chipping the Brash which used to be let rot back into the ground and prevent runoff .
     
  8. AYF

    AYF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    8,101
    Location:
    North Wales
    I say go for it! Then my prices will soar!:D:D:D:thumbup: Only teasing you lads!

    It's amazing what some of these people come up with.
    Had one lad going on with me that they should stop beef farming world wide.
    Ok I said, lets have a look at places like Brazil, what do you reccon will happen there when they get rid of all the beef?

    "oh it will all grow back to ran forest!"

    When I explained that no, they will in fact rip even more forest out to plant even vaster acerages of soya. And that soya has far less of an eco system associated with it that beef. At least beef has flies and birds and dung beetles etc etc all going allong with it.
    He'd never thought of that and quickly changes his mind!
     
  9. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,455
    Location:
    Laois
    It'll never work. Who's going to pay for it?. Spruce, pine and any of those soft woods grow quick enough (your still talking 40 odd years) but any hardwoods will take years to mature generations in fact and in the meantime someone may pay the farmers for that. Or do they think we eat grass, oh wait. There won't be any grass. Forestry belongs in a swamp of the worst order not on good land that man has spent thousands of years reclaiming and maintaining.
     
  10. AYF

    AYF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    8,101
    Location:
    North Wales
    These people dont actually realise what has created the land they look at every day, a lot honestly presume it would stay as fields if you just left it!
     
  11. Michael

    Michael Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,335
    Location:
    Co.Cork
    What's going to keep the country fed if they want us all to pack in the cattle and plant trees :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Some big posh Dublin 4 prick wanting attention more like.
     
  12. Arthur

    Arthur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    13,099
    Location:
    Munster
    Having had to listen to Eamon Ryan (green party) just now on Prime time you would think Ireland's agriculture was almost entirely responsible for what used be global warming but is now called climate change, another rant from some An Taisce lad of a similar nature, How did we get from Ice age to where we are now without warming and it wasn't because of agriculture and industry emissions that it warmed up.
     
  13. ptfarmer

    ptfarmer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    I thought it was a disgrace how Eamon Ryan was allowed to shout down the Professor who pointed out that many of these global warming models have been way out in their predictions. Miriam clearly not up to the job of chairing this discussion. Also idiotic the suggestion that Ireland should blanket plant forestry in place of beef. As more sensible commentators have pointed out, you'll simply move beef production to places like Brazil where more rainforest will be hacked down, causing far more damage and emmissions
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  14. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,455
    Location:
    Laois
    Agriculture is easy to pick on because the farmer is an individual. Industry is another matter because it involves thousands of people and vast sums of money which no one would dare take on.
    How many cattle would it take to match the emissions of one 680hp Scania?.
     
  15. nashmach

    nashmach Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    37,855
    Location:
    Wexford, Ireland
    If you got rid of the yank tanks us farmers wouldn't be blamed as much :D

    Eamon Ryan was on the radio too with a similar load of gibberish.
     
  16. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,455
    Location:
    Laois
    That pickup produces as much pollution as a 2 day old kitten nash:whistle:.
    Tbh I just tune out when I hear gibberish on the radio.
     
  17. max

    max Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564

    The pedantic pat in me needs to inform you there is a 620hp and 730hp scania, man do produce a 680 though. But to answer your question very little pollution is created due to strict euro 5/6 emissions. I'd sooner spend a while under a r730 than our old 280hp scania with the engine running, that's for sure. It's safer to smoke 60major than to go adjusting the brakes.


    Cut your way in, weld your way out!!!
     
  18. Arthur

    Arthur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    13,099
    Location:
    Munster
    Different emissions for a start, CO2 and NOX from the Scania, methane from the bovine, all the talk about converting to forestry yet the little patch I operate when it comes to calculating my carbon I get no credit for the small bit that's planted.
     
  19. diesel power

    diesel power Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    12,455
    Location:
    Laois
    Ah I get what yer saying and I suppose comparing the 2 isn't really the same at all. Still I'd rather stand in a shed full of cattle for day then stand in one with one truck idling all day. [MENTION=5073]max[/MENTION] I agree with you on new vs old diesels. I use a dexta here on the power washer and you couldn't have it in a shed or it would poison ya yet a 170hp modern tractor is grand.
     
  20. farmerjack

    farmerjack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Location:
    Cork
    Of course they say volcanoes don't cause climate change because they can't tax them. It's a fair load of nonsense to collect more taxes :thumbdown:
     
  21. bagenal

    bagenal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,251
    Location:
    Carlow
    I understand where you're coming from when you say industry i.e. the large multi nationals but there's a fair amount of jobs that depend on the produce of farming too.
    I only seen a bit of Prime Time and I agree that Eamonn Ryan shouting down the professor was nonsense, surely the man didn't become a professor without having a thorough knowledge of the subject.
    I also thought there should have been a farming representative on the panel to put the case for the agricultural industry. It wasn't a balanced debate.
     
  22. TMKF

    TMKF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    3,581
    Location:
    Cavan
    I'd say Harold was exhausted & really he's our only CC ag rep
     
  23. kverneland es 80

    kverneland es 80 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,399
    Location:
    west cork
    recon he is not home yet ,no sign of him locally today
     
  24. rwdjohnny

    rwdjohnny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Location:
    North kerry West Limerick
    I don't no much about forestry but I have worked on a few farms and seen and I'd have to say forestry is the best way to go for them, it would be a better way for a owner to make a living off it, no point in only getting a first cut of silage in late July august and wrecking the place every year to get a few bails to feed a few cattle and using the SFP to pay for it makes no sense. Wouldn't be happy with good to average land been turned into forestry. But there will be some lads that will turn good enough land into forestry for easy money that don't have a interest in farming it, or with there own job don't have the time to farm it and don't want to sell it.

    Sent from my SM-T530 using Tapatalk
     
  25. JOHNNY BOY

    JOHNNY BOY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,358
    Location:
    Central Mayo
    Well at least they can now rent it virtually tax free with the new schemes to the best of my knowledge anyways. Far better than planting it in my opinion tbh.
     

Share This Page