Replace Ireland's beef herd with forestry

You did.



If you are from a farm family, then it's often vital that you live near your farm. As is currently the case, many people have to hold an off farm job like in the government, shops or where ever. It doesn't mean that they don't work on farms too. There are plenty of people in this situation including myself. You can't tar everyone with the one brush. Planning laws are supposed to sort this out, but they far from do that.

There isn't a one size fits all. Population in our townland has halved in the last 20 years. You simply can't force people to live in towns.

Totally agree with your points there muckymanor. If i got out of farming i still would not want to live in a town. I like the peace of quite of the countryside, plus it is my choice and rightly so.
 
You did.



If you are from a farm family, then it's often vital that you live near your farm. As is currently the case, many people have to hold an off farm job like in the government, shops or where ever. It doesn't mean that they don't work on farms too. There are plenty of people in this situation including myself. You can't tar everyone with the one brush. Planning laws are supposed to sort this out, but they far from do that.

There isn't a one size fits all. Population in our townland has halved in the last 20 years. You simply can't force people to live in towns.

i was referring to people who dont work in farming , i meant they cant expect to live beside their parents just because they wish to , im well aware that many people are part time farmers , im not referring to them , not everyone who lives in one off housing is involved in farming

i dont think people should be forced to live in towns if they have already built a house but the way the planning authorities allowed anyone to stick a house almost anywhere from the mid nineties up until the crash was crazy , some local authorities were way worse than others
 
i was referring to people who dont work in farming , i meant they cant expect to live beside their parents just because they wish to , im well aware that many people are part time farmers , im not referring to them , not everyone who lives in one off housing is involved in farming

i dont think people should be forced to live in towns if they have already built a house but the way the planning authorities allowed anyone to stick a house almost anywhere from the mid nineties up until the crash was crazy , some local authorities were way worse than others
Mass forestry is not the solution to any of these issues. Nor is it any small part of the solution.

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Mass forestry is not the solution to any of these issues. Nor is it any small part of the solution.

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It's not any kind of solution at all. If we planted every square inch of Ireland under trees it wouldn't make a blind bit of a difference on a global scale. It's the rain forests are the lungs of the world. Not some poky spruce forest in the back of beyond in Ireland. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't do our bit but some of the speel would suggest us planting trees everywhere will solve the problems of this worlds climate.
 
plus it is my choice and rightly so.

No no no, you can't because its so hard to provide services for you.

Services like:
Sewage treatment...oh wait one-off houses provide their own not the state
Electrictiy....oh wait no same as above
Roads....wait dont we pay road tax (not car tax) and not to mention an levy on fuels cos we use more of them

Ah...so that leaves :confused:

I actually had someone suggest ribbon development causes more of expensive services like streetlights...til I pointed out streetlights are only in towns/villages:whistling:
 
its not complete isolation , the village may only be a few miles from a farm in some cases and thats where the rural ( non farmer population ) live , i see it with my relatives in rural north wales , its the ribbon development ( houses dotted across the landscape everywhere ) im on about , its very unique to this country and is incredibly inefficent when it comes to providing services etc , not to mention a blight on the landscape and thats not a view borne out of enviromentalism , it just looks like hell

"A blight on the landscape" is a completely subjective view. Personally I think vast areas covered in concrete spreading out filled with industry and crammed together housing in cities like Dublin are much more of an eyesore

But you're right not complete isolation just mostly isolation. Sure can't you travel a few miles into the local town...well unless you cant drive for one reason or another, or you want to be "sociable". So hundreds of older farmers living in basically isolation. Seperated from their families or their children who cant make a living from the land

you dont always have the choice to live beside your parents , if that were the case , the children of people in dublin 4 would all be buying the houses a few doors down but they cant afford them often so have to live elsewhere

Yes you dont always but I do. My sister does. My cousins do. And basically you're saying cos people in D4 dont have that option you would take away their freedom so its fairer?
Oh but its okay cos we can force people to live close together even though they clearly dont want to.
Being inspired by Britain to force mass movement and restrict their rights to land didnt go down too well the last time we tried that now did it?

rural populations are in decline anyway and that trend is going to continue , the number of farmers of any kind will also continue to decrease , farms in ireland are very small by international standards , its highly unlikely we are going to be unique in maintaining a nation of small holdings
Terrorism is on the rise.
Mass emigration is on the rise
Biodiversity loss is on the rise
Pollution, violent crime, unemployment in many countries. All on the rise

Something being a trend doesnt mean you should encourage it by increasing rural economic decline by removing farmers, nor that we should embrace the death of small holdings without a fight
 
No no no, you can't because its so hard to provide services for you.

Services like:
Sewage treatment...oh wait one-off houses provide their own not the state
Electrictiy....oh wait no same as above
Roads....wait dont we pay road tax (not car tax) and not to mention an levy on fuels cos we use more of them

Ah...so that leaves :confused:

I actually had someone suggest ribbon development causes more of expensive services like streetlights...til I pointed out streetlights are only in towns/villages:whistling:
Don't forget fibre optic networks for phone and tv. I've been at them for years to lay the 10 km cable up my laneway to serve my house. €200K is all it woukd cost. Sure I'd have that paid off in 2 year in fees.

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This has become more about replacing people as opposed to the beef herd, People left the land that is now planted for mostly economic reasons, the younger generation that got an education and managed to get a good job away from where they were brought up are hardly going to go back to where they saw their parents struggle to rear a family, the parents then had the option to either leave the property to the children or sell up themselves. Some may have died without making a will so there was little option for the siblings but to sell and divide the proceeds. It's hard to argue against planting the land in these scenarios as it would provide very little income due to the small scale of most holdings, OK some people have found themselves surrounded by forestry and it wasn't so noticable 10-15 years ago but now it is 15-18 metres tall and is there to stay untill clearfell, If it was good farmland surely the neighbouring farmers would have an interest in purchasing it in an attempt to keep forestry companies out, in reality forestry land is worth no more than 5k/ acre, Even in prime agricultural areas it is hard to convince the next generation that there is a future in farming unless they are able to take over a well established farm that is on a sound economic footing when they see their colleagues working 37 hrs a week and much better off.
 
No no no, you can't because its so hard to provide services for you.

Services like:
Sewage treatment...oh wait one-off houses provide their own not the state
Electrictiy....oh wait no same as above
Roads....wait dont we pay road tax (not car tax) and not to mention an levy on fuels cos we use more of them

Ah...so that leaves :confused:

I actually had someone suggest ribbon development causes more of expensive services like streetlights...til I pointed out streetlights are only in towns/villages:whistling:


we have an incredibly high number of miles of road considering the size of the population , this is due to the fact that houses are stuck everywhere and anywhere , providing electricity for two houses down a boreen which is three miles from the local village is more expensive than providing power to fifty houses in a built up area and as for sewage , majority of tanks are sub standard , an incredible amount of pollution stems from poorly designed sewage systems in one off housing , land being too wet for proper drainage etc

providing services to sparsely populated areas is very expensive , thats a fact

i also find it amusing how it was mentioned earlier that planting land increases the price of the remaining land for farmers , granting planning for sites on anything with road frontage also drives up the price of farms yet i imagine few here oppose that , one off housing also of course reduces the amount of land for sale for agriculture
 
This has become more about replacing people as opposed to the beef herd, People left the land that is now planted for mostly economic reasons, the younger generation that got an education and managed to get a good job away from where they were brought up are hardly going to go back to where they saw their parents struggle to rear a family, the parents then had the option to either leave the property to the children or sell up themselves. Some may have died without making a will so there was little option for the siblings but to sell and divide the proceeds. It's hard to argue against planting the land in these scenarios as it would provide very little income due to the small scale of most holdings, OK some people have found themselves surrounded by forestry and it wasn't so noticable 10-15 years ago but now it is 15-18 metres tall and is there to stay untill clearfell, If it was good farmland surely the neighbouring farmers would have an interest in purchasing it in an attempt to keep forestry companies out, in reality forestry land is worth no more than 5k/ acre, Even in prime agricultural areas it is hard to convince the next generation that there is a future in farming unless they are able to take over a well established farm that is on a sound economic footing when they see their colleagues working 37 hrs a week and much better off.
Well said

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There was a yank over on his holidays many years ago.

Himself and his wife were out walking when they noticed two lads working in a field. One lad was digging holes and the other lad was following behind filling them in again.

Fancinated by this, the yank walked over to them and asked what they were doing.

"Well" they explained. "Normally we're a three man outfit, but the lad that plants the trees is out sick today"
 
That reminds me .farmer phones the vet about a sick cat but its a bad line and the vet thinks its calf tells the farmer to give it a pint of castor oil The next day the vet is passing and looks in gobsmacked when he is told its a cat farmer says its ok last seen going up the field with 6 other cats 2 digging holes 2 filling in and 2 looking for fresh ground.
 
That reminds me .farmer phones the vet about a sick cat but its a bad line and the vet thinks its calf tells the farmer to give it a pint of castor oil The next day the vet is passing and looks in gobsmacked when he is told its a cat farmer says its ok last seen going up the field with 6 other cats 2 digging holes 2 filling in and 2 looking for fresh ground.

Ah ffs :lol::lol::lol:
 
Getting back to the thread title then rather than social aspects, why are forestry companies able to pay so much more for this land?

Are farmers/potential individual foresters missing something here? Or is it (as I'd expect), they are thinking more of the capital appreciation rather than the day to day cash flows?
 
Getting back to the thread title then rather than social aspects, why are forestry companies able to pay so much more for this land?

Are farmers/potential individual foresters missing something here? Or is it (as I'd expect), they are thinking more of the capital appreciation rather than the day to day cash flows?

Are the forestry companies paying mega money for planting type land?, I don't think so, most of the companies are getting the establishment grant and the premium and are getting the planting stock at first cost, they are looking at it from a purely financial aspect and if that was the way farmers looked at it they would do the same the difference being the farmer sees land in a different light, only as a means to support livestock.
 
Are the forestry companies paying mega money for planting type land?, I don't think so, most of the companies are getting the establishment grant and the premium and are getting the planting stock at first cost, they are looking at it from a purely financial aspect and if that was the way farmers looked at it they would do the same the difference being the farmer sees land in a different light, only as a means to support livestock.

I presume in your 4k/acre figure Spanner you meant virgin forestry ground like what you have said there?

I thought I read somewhere of established forestry making similar and given that you have all the costs of establishment again I don't see how that squares to be honest!
 
we have an incredibly high number of miles of road considering the size of the population, this is due to the fact that houses are stuck everywhere and anywhere
Hmmm you can't think of any other reason for this at all....Seriously? History is boring but its not hard.

providing electricity for two houses down a boreen which is three miles from the local village is more expensive than providing power to fifty houses in a built up area
Annnnnd who pays for those more expensive connections? Oh yea the house owner!!


and as for sewage , majority of tanks are sub standard , an incredible amount of pollution stems from poorly designed sewage systems in one off housing , land being too wet for proper drainage etc
We must be wasting a serious amount of money paying for inspection fees they brought in? Sure that info is already available and apparently you have it? No wait its not
Fun fact: the only place to have a regulated inspection system of sewage treatment plants is where I live, Cavan
And guess what they found that the compliance rate is actually pretty high
Meanwhile: 41 sewage treatment plants for towns are RELEASING UNTREATED SEWAGE into lakes and rivers!

providing services to sparsely populated areas is very expensive , thats a fact
Then back it up if its such a fact. I've seen claims but no links

i also find it amusing how it was mentioned earlier that planting land increases the price of the remaining land for farmers , granting planning for sites on anything with road frontage also drives up the price of farms yet i imagine few here oppose that , one off housing also of course reduces the amount of land for sale for agriculture
The odd 1/2 acre or acre sites vs losing 50-300 acre blocks to forestry. Hard to compare
 
the younger generation that got an education and managed to get a good job

I'm not gonna clog up this thread but at some stage I'd like to make a thread about why this is one of the worst things about current attitudes in farming.

The idea that farming isnt a good job or that its not essential to get a good education to do it.
Im not suggesting that you mean that by what you said Spanner but I hear it often along with the "I'm just a farmer" line in a negative way
 
I'm not gonna clog up this thread but at some stage I'd like to make a thread about why this is one of the worst things about current attitudes in farming.

The idea that farming isnt a good job or that its not essential to get a good education to do it.
Im not suggesting that you mean that by what you said Spanner but I hear it often along with the "I'm just a farmer" line in a negative way

My collage tutor used to say " Farming is the most scientifically diverse subject on earth. You have it all, business, biology, chemistry, physics,engineering, social, environmental"
Takes a serious amount of knowledge to be a farmer, weather farmers know it or not we are a cleaver bunch.

Anyhow, back on topic.
It's my belief that planting land won't go beyond a few hundred acres, if a local village realises that it is going to have the views out of the windows spoiled by trees because the local farmer wan't to make money, there will be outrage, tourism will be a concern because people won't come for the views any more, and eventually any planting will have to go through planning, the same as buildings, making it harder and harder to get.

Won't be long till the public misses the 'beautiful green fields'


And as for stopping felling, it's happening over here already, the forestry commission is having trouble being allowed to fell platations planted during the war because of the changing view!
 
Is there a tax saving advantage in forestry in Ireland ?It was a big incentive over here at one time ,suppose the areas are much bigger as well just need to look at google earth to see the no of hill farms that have been planted.
 
I'm not gonna clog up this thread but at some stage I'd like to make a thread about why this is one of the worst things about current attitudes in farming.

The idea that farming isnt a good job or that its not essential to get a good education to do it.
Im not suggesting that you mean that by what you said Spanner but I hear it often along with the "I'm just a farmer" line in a negative way
[MENTION=2641]TMKF[/MENTION] maybe i should have worded it different as in the people that went on to 3rd level as opposed to those that decided to bail out after leaving cert or even earlier.
 
Lads, ye are out of touch with your land prices. 2 months ago, 42 acres close to us made €146,000 and was bought by a forestry company. A young lad that joined it and had rented it for years put it that far and just couldn't go any further on it as he has a young family and a mortgage and realistically couldn't see it returning that over the next 20 years to make the repayments on it. If it had come in at 2.5 to €3k per acre he could have broken even.

We are not talking about golden vale land that's being planted. We are talking about marginal land - if you want to put time and money into it, you can get a small return. If you don't then forestry will give a return. But my point is that this young lad would have put the time into it, cleaning up drains, putting in shores, reseeding etc. But he could not compete with the forestry company. Forestry companies are buying virgin land at €2.5k per acre in some parts around here where there is no local interest.

When we got out of milking in 1994, we sold our quota and had to sell 30 acres of land with it as it was attached. The buyer had to retain the land, so he planted it. Last year he sold it for €75k.

From my perspective, it's not about education and it's not totally about money. As farmers, an awful lot of us are not making enough to survive from our land alone. But we still have a very important role in protecting the environment. I'd argue that rural communities are far more important than forests. Hell, we are talking about lives here - you can't put a value on life.

Look at it quite simply. The government are giving out these grants to non farmers who are buying up the land at prices that local farmers cannot economically go to. It prevents expansion. It means that the next generation can never expand either. Farmers are not taking up these grants in great numbers because they want to continue farming in the same way that generations before them farmed.
 
[MENTION=2641]TMKF[/MENTION] maybe i should have worded it different as in the people that went on to 3rd level as opposed to those that decided to bail out after leaving cert or even earlier.
Well I went down the whole 3rd level engineering route. Got the green cert over the summer months. I'm pulling tits now. Genuinely I don't know if I'd have been better off financially had I followed a career in engineering. I'm happy at what I'm at though and that counts for everything.

I think that for some teenagers, patience runs out and they wouldn't be able to stand another minute in school when they don't have to.

The way I see it, and I could be wrong, people who are willing to work will make a go of things. 3rd level education doesn't make stupid people clever, it just opens up opportunities. It's what you learn at work and the career moves you make that determine your success. "A fool making the same mistake twice is like a dog going back for its own vomit"

Back to forestry.

My take on it is that good land should not be planted. There's plenty of marginal land earning little or nothing that would be suitable for trees and the farmer working it would be much happier working less of an area of good land. If there's anyone on here on good land considering planting, please PM me and we'll chat.

There needs to be more native trees sown too. Those pines do nothing for me. I've said it before, agro-forestry is a good way of utilising marginal land and it gets little airing.
 
I would be in support of replacing some of the beef herd with trees. Once the delusional are removed from beef production as the years go by, a huge amount of land will naturally free up with no one willing to farm it, I can't see even the land suitable for tillage being cropped and I don't know about the future of milk production in Ireland to give an opinion but I think there are lots of rose tinted glasses dairy farmers out there.
I assume allot of land will be afforested over the next 20 years, as land values will be slashed as there just won't be anyone willing to farm it. Once land values start dropping then there will be a seismic change in how Ireland is farmed or not farmed as is my belief. Lots of guys aren't no too bothered about not making money yearly as they rely on there asset value to lead them to believe they are doing well. Once land values change and farmers will quickly see that their pants are down. Depressing :angry:. All in all I think its a very good time to sell land, unfortunately there is allot for sale around here and near a buyer for even good ground
 
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