No Till biological farming

Old thread but I have a question regarding no till and maintaining that with stitching in seed on old pasture say for silage and grazing.

I was told that it must be shallow ploughed otherwise the seed won't take hold. That's for a mixture of grasses and legumes with chicory etc in the for deep rooting.

Is this true? I thought one could graze it right down, chain harrow then stitch it, chain harrow and roll it.:scratchhead:
 
Old thread but I have a question regarding no till and maintaining that with stitching in seed on old pasture say for silage and grazing.

I was told that it must be shallow ploughed otherwise the seed won't take hold
. That's for a mixture of grasses and legumes with chicory etc in the for deep rooting.

Is this true? I thought one could graze it right down, chain harrow then stitch it, chain harrow and roll it.:scratchhead:

nonsense, are you going killing off the old ley with glyphosate?
 
Old thread but I have a question regarding no till and maintaining that with stitching in seed on old pasture say for silage and grazing.

I was told that it must be shallow ploughed otherwise the seed won't take hold. That's for a mixture of grasses and legumes with chicory etc in the for deep rooting.

Is this true? I thought one could graze it right down, chain harrow then stitch it, chain harrow and roll it.:scratchhead:
Nonsense indeed
 
Well he suggested firstly to spray it off which I didn't want to do. I would imagine he was referring to an old pasture as being compacted and needing breaking...

So a tight graze, Chain harrow, stitch and CH, roll would be sufficient?

The roll I would have thought of no till was to keep the structure and add certain seed to break into the pan. acting as a supplement to FYM which won't cover every field.

Im reading The Ploughmans Folly. He talks of a corn farmer dropping in kernals and brushing with his feet over scrubbed land. I'm only 1/4 way through.
 
one way around it, (grass into grass) would be to direct sow around silage cutting time when the ley will be naturally stunted from cutting. I would think if you were to direct drill seed into a growing crop of grass 3 week pre cutting of silage you would get a good hit of new grass while it would be some bit established before the aggressive old sward comes back again.

I am sure there are products allowed in Organics like citric acid, or some form of sulphate that would give grass a fair buring, but not a kill, and allot time for the young grass to strike. otherwise rotation is the only way of cleaning off ley swards for organic no-till
 
. I would think if you were to direct drill seed into a growing crop of grass 3 week pre cutting of silage you would get a good hit of new grass while it would be some bit established before the aggressive old sward comes back again.
Have you done this?
As id like to see how this went for you?what machine did you use?
 
Have you done this?
As id like to see how this went for you?what machine did you use?
any direct drill would be able to do this, I have a moore unidrill. the above works okay but up to this point I was nearly always terminating the old sward. From now on I will be doing allot more seeding into a growing grass sward

Cant see why the man on the mower is going to be effected, You would hardly notice where the drill has passed over. Maybe if you were sowing into grass growing 6 weeks, but I cut every 30-40 days so really I would be sowing 2 weeks after the previous cut, and 3 weeks before the next cut
 
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From what I've been told today, certain species are fine such as grasses and clovers. It's when less established seed is added such as chicory or sainfoin etc that may struggle.
 
02FAC7B7-3CA1-4694-85B5-C970CCD50D02.jpeg FBA12E2B-5109-4515-A92A-8C7E0F0A9165.jpeg Whilst some of us discuss/debate the relative pros and cons of various soil cultivation techniques and the finer details soil health, some farmers are obviously so far detached from soil health that it really annoys me; two fields that I saw today:
The “grass field” also had a round feeder surrounded by liquidised soil and deep wheel ruts which I didn’t photograph.
 
View attachment 50004 View attachment 50005 Whilst some of us discuss/debate the relative pros and cons of various soil cultivation techniques and the finer details soil health, some farmers are obviously so far detached from soil health that it really annoys me; two fields that I saw today:
The “grass field” also had a round feeder surrounded by liquidised soil and deep wheel ruts which I didn’t photograph.
I've told you before... keep off my land with that camera!!
 
View attachment 50004 View attachment 50005 Whilst some of us discuss/debate the relative pros and cons of various soil cultivation techniques and the finer details soil health, some farmers are obviously so far detached from soil health that it really annoys me; two fields that I saw today:
The “grass field” also had a round feeder surrounded by liquidised soil and deep wheel ruts which I didn’t photograph.
you would be surprised how little damage the stock will have done to the structure of the land, its the tractor ruts that will have done the serious damage. Now im not condoning it as I wouldnt like to have such a mess on land already
 
What erks me is poaching grassland is a big no/no yet we can sow a crop of kale and graze that over winter and thats not poaching. The last field of that stuff I saw used that way near me here was nothing short of liquid when the stock on it had it grazed out. I'm talking sinking to their bellies. I can't understand this notion of trying to reinvent the wheel in this wet little country of ours. Our parents had things fairly well sussed imo. Cattle on concrete in winter and land in spring when conditions are right.
 
you would be surprised how little damage the stock will have done to the structure of the land, its the tractor ruts that will have done the serious damage. Now im not condoning it as I wouldnt like to have such a mess on land already

Perhaps not deep structural damage but definite harm to anything on the upper surface. The next thing that’ll happen is that a carpet of annual meadow grass forms on the poached layer and goes to seed. Lads then wonder why they have meadow grass problems in their grass.

I now know where the term muck savage came from.
 
View attachment 50004 View attachment 50005 Whilst some of us discuss/debate the relative pros and cons of various soil cultivation techniques and the finer details soil health, some farmers are obviously so far detached from soil health that it really annoys me; two fields that I saw today:
The “grass field” also had a round feeder surrounded by liquidised soil and deep wheel ruts which I didn’t photograph.
During the time of REPS there were severe penalties for this and rightly so! If someone did that to my land I'd be fuming but I can imagine what their own yard must be like...surely stock could have been taken off that much earlier. That'll take time to recover. Same as some potato ground locally I see that has been destroyed during harvesting- it'll take a few years of cereals to correct the underground damage but when they see dust on the surface next April they'll think "oh sure it wasn't so bad after all".
MF30
 
During the time of REPS there were severe penalties for this and rightly so! If someone did that to my land I'd be fuming but I can imagine what their own yard must be like...surely stock could have been taken off that much earlier. That'll take time to recover. Same as some potato ground locally I see that has been destroyed during harvesting- it'll take a few years of cereals to correct the underground damage but when they see dust on the surface next April they'll think "oh sure it wasn't so bad after all".
MF30

Exactly!!
 
The ability of ground to carry stock in out wintering situations depends on a lot of factors . We used to grow a lot of grass for seed which was harvested with a combine in August . There was great after grass on it but you could put heavy cattle on it for the winter and it would not poach . When the grass ripened and went for seed and died off it must have put it reserves into the root system . When farmers reseed fields they always pride them selves on how quick they get the paddock back into the grazing rotation without any thought for the root system . There is an attitude that once the field is green everything is grand .
This attitude that all stock should be standing on concrete for most of the winter is wrong and unnecessary expense on farmers and leads to disease . When I was in Kildalton we used to be taken in the back of a lorry out to see farms in the area . Some of the area in south Kilkenny is hilly and while traveling out to a farm a Mayo lad jumped up and shouted Foggage . It was a new word for me and it basically means live hay on the stem used for winter feeding.
There are systems of Farming using Foggage for winter feed and carrying animals in a healthy condition through the winter . Using pictures of poached fields as a justification for saying all animals should be on concrete for five months of the year only makes other people richer and not the farmer .
 
The ability of ground to carry stock in out wintering situations depends on a lot of factors . We used to grow a lot of grass for seed which was harvested with a combine in August . There was great after grass on it but you could put heavy cattle on it for the winter and it would not poach . When the grass ripened and went for seed and died off it must have put it reserves into the root system . When farmers reseed fields they always pride them selves on how quick they get the paddock back into the grazing rotation without any thought for the root system . There is an attitude that once the field is green everything is grand .
This attitude that all stock should be standing on concrete for most of the winter is wrong and unnecessary expense on farmers and leads to disease . When I was in Kildalton we used to be taken in the back of a lorry out to see farms in the area . Some of the area in south Kilkenny is hilly and while traveling out to a farm a Mayo lad jumped up and shouted Foggage . It was a new word for me and it basically means live hay on the stem used for winter feeding.
There are systems of Farming using Foggage for winter feed and carrying animals in a healthy condition through the winter . Using pictures of poached fields as a justification for saying all animals should be on concrete for five months of the year only makes other people richer and not the farmer .
I 100% agree, there are areas in the country where responsible outwintering should be promoted, its probably better for both environment and herd health. Within reason the hoof will not destroy soils. its us bloody farmers that are destroying soil by mechanical means
 
The ability of ground to carry stock in out wintering situations depends on a lot of factors . We used to grow a lot of grass for seed which was harvested with a combine in August . There was great after grass on it but you could put heavy cattle on it for the winter and it would not poach . When the grass ripened and went for seed and died off it must have put it reserves into the root system . When farmers reseed fields they always pride them selves on how quick they get the paddock back into the grazing rotation without any thought for the root system . There is an attitude that once the field is green everything is grand .
This attitude that all stock should be standing on concrete for most of the winter is wrong and unnecessary expense on farmers and leads to disease . When I was in Kildalton we used to be taken in the back of a lorry out to see farms in the area . Some of the area in south Kilkenny is hilly and while traveling out to a farm a Mayo lad jumped up and shouted Foggage . It was a new word for me and it basically means live hay on the stem used for winter feeding.
There are systems of Farming using Foggage for winter feed and carrying animals in a healthy condition through the winter . Using pictures of poached fields as a justification for saying all animals should be on concrete for five months of the year only makes other people richer and not the farmer .

I 100% agree, there are areas in the country where responsible outwintering should be promoted, its probably better for both environment and herd health. Within reason the hoof will not destroy soils. its us bloody farmers that are destroying soil by mechanical means

Lads, there's no justification for the messing going on in the pictures above. What's going on there couldn't be further from responsible outwintering. Of course outwintering in the right conditions is a cost effective and healthy way of keeping cattle over the winter but if that's the best effort that farmer could make at it, his cattle should have been on concrete a long time ago.
 
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