Is a small scale dairy startup viable

Locally an 80 cow guy has pulled the plug in the last few weeks. Fed up and tired of less for more with more intrusion all the time.
 
The parish I farm in, nth Longford on the Cavan/Letrim border. (Drumlin country, heavy land)
has 25 dairy farms. The average herd size is 35 cows. A few of the smaller herds 12 - 20 cows are part time, but most are full-time.
Also I don't get all the gloom re. Dairy expansion.
Global markets dictate price, .001% increase in production in the states would be multiples of Irish increase.
 
6600 said:
Yes there is, if the previous poster had a robot he'd be 10 cows away from maxing out the robot, be in a heap of debt and no more milk sold. And have the cows inside waiting to be fed.
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Pretty sure that there would be more milk sold if they were milked by a robot, and if they were being kept in all the time breeding would be different sso they'd yeild more. We're at a shade over double the litres per cow with robots to what he's on.
 
slurryboy said:
Pretty sure that there would be more milk sold if they were milked by a robot, and if they were being kept in all the time breeding would be different sso they'd yeild more. We're at a shade over double the litres per cow with robots to what he's on.
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What about keeping them in all the time and zero grazing but with a normal parlor
 
there,s a few of us on here milking less than 80 cows , myself @jf850 @Mf240 (i think) and we make a living out of it with no off farm income in mine and jf,s case anyway and as most of the lads say start small and keep the borrowings down, talk to farmers that milk cows in the type of system you want to use and be your own boss don,t blindly follow the herd. the big minus i,d have in your plan is its going to be a one man show and that means being tied to cows 7 days a week 52 weeks a year , go on a weeks holiday and you can add 600 euroes to the cost for farm relief to milk , same thing any day you need a day off , if you go out on sunday you have to be back to milk in the evening this mightn,t seem a big deal now but after 10 yrs or so and women involved it can become wearying watching everyone else having their weekends off while you slave away , its just something to consider before you jump in
 
Ya still under 80 @humungus when you think about it 20 years ago 80 was a big herd of cows.

I know it's the only thing there's a few pound in at the moment but I don't know if it will last if everyone gets into it.
 
humungus said:
there,s a few of us on here milking less than 80 cows , myself @jf850 @Mf240 (i think) and we make a living out of it with no off farm income in mine and jf,s case anyway and as most of the lads say start small and keep the borrowings down, talk to farmers that milk cows in the type of system you want to use and be your own boss don,t blindly follow the herd. the big minus i,d have in your plan is its going to be a one man show and that means being tied to cows 7 days a week 52 weeks a year , go on a weeks holiday and you can add 600 euroes to the cost for farm relief to milk , same thing any day you need a day off , if you go out on sunday you have to be back to milk in the evening this mightn,t seem a big deal now but after 10 yrs or so and women involved it can become wearying watching everyone else having their weekends off while you slave away , its just something to consider before you jump in
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Agree 100% with what you have said .
I hover at a shake under 50 milkers. I am happy at that number , and have absolutely no interest in 100. I keep good grass under that many , and they reward well for doing so . A lad used to milk an odd time for me commented on what milk I was sending versus a lad where he milks a lot with 135 cows . But he can tell.anyone who could be bothered listening to him , "I'm milking 135 ".

3 or 4 lads have started with 50 odd that I know of within 5.miles of here inlast few years . 1 lad early 20s , his grandparents , just pension age.milk 115 , and must intend staying at it for another while . A few more late 40s .
Very few ceased milking , unless for health/age reasons .
Ask any merchant/feed mill rep who he can get money from easier . 50 cow man on his own ground or 200 cow man with 100 acres rented at 300 an acre.

To the OP.
Try relief milking , to see if you like milking . Any amount of takers for your services .

You might be as well off doing that full time and set your land to a dairy farmer who is hungry for more land .
 
Mf240 said:
Ya still under 80 @humungus when you think about it 20 years ago 80 was a big herd of cows.

I know it's the only thing there's a few pound in at the moment but I don't know if it will last if everyone gets into it.
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i think i,m the smallest herd in the area now with 60 , lads that had no cows 5 yrs ago have 150 now, one thing i notice in most cases is that they were all dairy farms in the past that sold their quota to lads like me and you for up to 2 pounds 50 p a gallon and now their sons or relatives are back in milk much bigger than most lads that bought their quota
 
jf 850 said:
Agree 100% with what you have said .
I hover at a shake under 50 milkers. I am happy at that number , and have absolutely no interest in 100. I keep good grass under that many , and they reward well for doing so . A lad used to milk an odd time for me commented on what milk I was sending versus a lad where he milks a lot with 135 cows . But he can tell.anyone who could be bothered listening to him , "I'm milking 135 ".

3 or 4 lads have started with 50 odd that I know of within 5.miles of here inlast few years . 1 lad early 20s , his grandparents , just pension age.milk 115 , and must intend staying at it for another while . A few more late 40s .
Very few ceased milking , unless for health/age reasons .
Ask any merchant/feed mill rep who he can get money from easier . 50 cow man on his own ground or 200 cow man with 100 acres rented at 300 an acre.

To the OP.
Try relief milking , to see if you like milking . Any amount of takers for your services .

You might be as well off doing that full time and set your land to a dairy farmer who is hungry for more land .
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i see eddie downeys son on the journal or indo talking about getting started in milk and he seemed a level headed lad ,walking before he runs and another young farmer saying the same in the press, its nice to see a bit of realism in young fellas
 
humungus said:
i think i,m the smallest herd in the area now with 60 , lads that had no cows 5 yrs ago have 150 now, one thing i notice in most cases is that they were all dairy farms in the past that sold their quota to lads like me and you for up to 2 pounds 50 p a gallon and now their sons or relatives are back in milk much bigger than most lads that bought their quota
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I bought a good bit of quota when I started. The parents miked about 25 and I made my way up to 50 over a few years. A few years ago a bit of land came up for sale beside me and I bought it. This allowed me keep more cows ,I've gone up near 80 now and I don't think I'll pass it.
 
humungus said:
i see eddie downeys son on the journal or indo talking about getting started in milk and he seemed a level headed lad ,walking before he runs and another young farmer saying the same in the press, its nice to see a bit of realism in young fellas
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Some young fellas are very smart and just need a start
 
Only reason I'm suggesting a robot is that as a management tool they are just amazing. Solids litres scc, my uncle has 2 in, his time spent managing cows went from very very little to being basically all he does now. His workload hasn't increased and the type of work it doesn't feel like work. He scanned his cows there and of the 57 that were possible to show up as incalf 54 were incalf! All down to having the tools, information and time at his disposal.
50 or 55 high litre cows done well will do better than 100 done poorly. It's not easy doing that without any info.
 
jcb411abuser said:
Only reason I'm suggesting a robot is that as a management tool they are just amazing. Solids litres scc, my uncle has 2 in, his time spent managing cows went from very very little to being basically all he does now. His workload hasn't increased and the type of work it doesn't feel like work. He scanned his cows there and of the 57 that were possible to show up as incalf 54 were incalf! All down to having the tools, information and time at his disposal.
50 or 55 high litre cows done well will do better than 100 done poorly. It's not easy doing that without any info.
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50-60 cows in any system done well will be better than 100or even 150 done badly in the same setup. What kills most is being over stocked and over borrowed
 
I sold cattle to a 50 year old odd bachelor last week. We were talking about cows milking well this year .
He is milking 19 cows in a tie up byre . Keeping back 2 cows for calves , and sent 1270 litres from the 17. Every 2nd day collection. He is a careful man , and he is very quite. Certainly not a man blowing his trumpet.
 
Was just thinking today in regards to the OP. Your probably a youngish fella and full of enthusiasm, don't let us old grumps put you off completely.

Ideally go milking and working with a couple of farmers to see if you like cows .
 
Diddly Dee said:
I started milking 50 cows this year, I have a small farm. I built 50 outdoor cubicles incl mats for 10k. no auto scraper yet. I put the an 8 unit parlour in an existing shed, i got the parlour for taking away and bought orby feeders. I sold my beef stock and bought 20 crossbred heifers and 30 older cows. Im milking once a day as i work fulltime. I'm averaging 20.3 l/cow/day at 5.1BF and 4.00P. I also bought a load of Murphy concrete drinkers for 2.5k.
My total cost to get in was 25k incl concrete labour etc and my beef stock bought the cows. I had the place set up in paddocks so no cost there. I dont have all the roadways in that I would like but thats ok. i have a man milking 3 days a week

Even though I only have got 3 milk cheques so far, it make some difference to get a cheque for 10k plus and still have all your stock. i expect to make a profit this year even with milk price the way it is. Low input, moderate output, costs easier to control.

i had met lely and delaval about robots. i couldnt make it add up.

we really need some rain.
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Is the plan to stay milking once a day? Are the heifers and cows frxjerseys? How man acres of a milking platform have you?
 
I am not a cow man but tillage so not well up on them but, the one thing i would say about cows is that i know a few people and the cows own them rather than they owning the cows.
What i mean is they rarely leave their farmyard because they are too busy looking after the cows. When the quotas went, they got more of them as if their life wasn't bad enough.
You are a young man with your entire adult life ahead of you, don't spend your working life working 7 days a week so you can buy an extra bit of land, once you have the extra few acres you will be able to get a few more cows, you will work longer hours, all for what, to pay back the bank. You must have a work life balance to enjoy the fruits of your labour.
If you do ever manage to get out and meet a girl who is willing to share the lifestyle, you will not be able to do stuff with the kids, or go on a two week holiday.
The only way to own cows is to have enough of them to be able to afford a shared milking arrangement either with someone in a similar position(small number of cows) or a good workman. If your place is not big enough for this then go off and get a job and either rent out the land or have a few dry stock which will need much less work. It sounds like a good bit of your farm is not fit for tillage but the expense to enter this if you are doing your own work is very high and margins are small.
 
KTM Farmer said:
I am not a cow man but tillage so not well up on them but, the one thing i would say about cows is that i know a few people and the cows own them rather than they owning the cows.
What i mean is they rarely leave their farmyard because they are too busy looking after the cows. When the quotas went, they got more of them as if their life wasn't bad enough.
You are a young man with your entire adult life ahead of you, don't spend your working life working 7 days a week so you can buy an extra bit of land, once you have the extra few acres you will be able to get a few more cows, you will work longer hours, all for what, to pay back the bank. You must have a work life balance to enjoy the fruits of your labour.
If you do ever manage to get out and meet a girl who is willing to share the lifestyle, you will not be able to do stuff with the kids, or go on a two week holiday.
The only way to own cows is to have enough of them to be able to afford a shared milking arrangement either with someone in a similar position(small number of cows) or a good workman. If your place is not big enough for this then go off and get a job and either rent out the land or have a few dry stock which will need much less work. It sounds like a good bit of your farm is not fit for tillage but the expense to enter this if you are doing your own work is very high and margins are small.
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So rent it out and get a job, why not just sell it altogether?
75 cows would give him a very good income and he could get into it for a little more than the cost of a new tractor if he already has stock to sell. He could well afford to pay someone to milk a few times a week and get help in the spring. The work involved is not cruel by any means, once you can milk your cows and wash up in 1.5hrs there's plenty free time available. The financial risk is minimal as he will have a valuable asset built up in stock if things really went pear-shaped.
Anyone self-employed in any business is stuck to it and can't just walk away when they feel like it. But there are rewards and opportunities, and a certain level of security being in control of your own destiny. An employee can be told any day that they are no longer needed, that will be happening a lot in the next while.
Take away the BPS (or inflate it away) and how profitable would any other farming enterprise be?
 
6600 said:
So rent it out and get a job, why not just sell it altogether?
75 cows would give him a very good income and he could get into it for a little more than the cost of a new tractor if he already has stock to sell. He could well afford to pay someone to milk a few times a week and get help in the spring. The work involved is not cruel by any means, once you can milk your cows and wash up in 1.5hrs there's plenty free time available. The financial risk is minimal as he will have a valuable asset built up in stock if things really went pear-shaped.
Anyone self-employed in any business is stuck to it and can't just walk away when they feel like it. But there are rewards and opportunities, and a certain level of security being in control of your own destiny. An employee can be told any day that they are no longer needed, that will be happening a lot in the next while.
Take away the BPS (or inflate it away) and how profitable would any other farming enterprise be?
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Just wondering would that opinion be changed if I was to only milk 50 cows and guarantee enough silage every year
 
deere6320 said:
Just wondering would that opinion be changed if I was to only milk 50 cows and guarantee enough silage every year
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It definitely makes sense to have that many the first year, it's a very steep learning curve with training heifers. On the money side of things the first year our heifers supplied 4,650 litres. Budget on a gross price of 30c including vat and solids. It will cost around half of that figure for meal, fert, vet and contractors. The second year they will do more and more again the third once you have a settled herd. Plan to start calving mid Jan and be finished mid-March. That way you can dry off the start of November and give everything a rest and not be milking in the dead of winter. Heifers need a longer dry period and you will get it back in the second year and easier get them back in calf. Don't be afraid to feed them and get the heifers from good herds with good litres and solids. If you are selling calves it reduces the spring workload. I know people say to buy cows rather than heifers but once you have them trained in you have a young herd with very little mastitis/lameness issues.
Coming from sucklers you already have good experience with calving cows and grazing. It would be worthwhile spending a little now cleaning drains and reseeding a bit. Focus on getting 40 acres closest to the yard right in terms of ph, P+K, drainage/fencing/water and some new grass. Try and come up with realistic costs to get milking and then decide if its for you. A good layout of the milking shed would make milking easy. Enough units will speed up the task. See plenty of yards, everyone will tell you things they wish they did differently.
 
6600 said:
So rent it out and get a job, why not just sell it altogether?
75 cows would give him a very good income and he could get into it for a little more than the cost of a new tractor if he already has stock to sell. He could well afford to pay someone to milk a few times a week and get help in the spring. The work involved is not cruel by any means, once you can milk your cows and wash up in 1.5hrs there's plenty free time available. The financial risk is minimal as he will have a valuable asset built up in stock if things really went pear-shaped.
Anyone self-employed in any business is stuck to it and can't just walk away when they feel like it. But there are rewards and opportunities, and a certain level of security being in control of your own destiny. An employee can be told any day that they are no longer needed, that will be happening a lot in the next while.
Take away the BPS (or inflate it away) and how profitable would any other farming enterprise be?
Click to expand...

OP, don't sell it, there are plenty of fellas willing to give big money to rent it to increase their cow numbers. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
I know a few men in their late 40's early 50's who are like old men from the cows running their lives. From what I am told anything up to 70 cows you could not afford to hire in help as your margin would be too small. But I may just be hearing the poor mouth.
Before investing heavily in dairying, the OP should spend 12 months milking 7 days a week for others and see how well he is paid for that, or is he still as enthusiastic. I expect it would be a big eye opener.
With any half decent job he will have two days a week off that he could be doing a bit of farming and will enjoy it, and enjoy family life outside work also.
 
6600 said:
It definitely makes sense to have that many the first year, it's a very steep learning curve with training heifers. On the money side of things the first year our heifers supplied 4,650 litres. Budget on a gross price of 30c including vat and solids. It will cost around half of that figure for meal, fert, vet and contractors. The second year they will do more and more again the third once you have a settled herd. Plan to start calving mid Jan and be finished mid-March. That way you can dry off the start of November and give everything a rest and not be milking in the dead of winter. Heifers need a longer dry period and you will get it back in the second year and easier get them back in calf. Don't be afraid to feed them and get the heifers from good herds with good litres and solids. If you are selling calves it reduces the spring workload. I know people say to buy cows rather than heifers but once you have them trained in you have a young herd with very little mastitis/lameness issues.
Coming from sucklers you already have good experience with calving cows and grazing. It would be worthwhile spending a little now cleaning drains and reseeding a bit. Focus on getting 40 acres closest to the yard right in terms of ph, P+K, drainage/fencing/water and some new grass. Try and come up with realistic costs to get milking and then decide if its for you. A good layout of the milking shed would make milking easy. Enough units will speed up the task. See plenty of yards, everyone will tell you things they wish they did differently.
Click to expand...
What's the story with autumn calving?

Have the dry period in the summer, slac time in summer is bound to be nicer.
Contractor to do the silage.
 
6600 said:
It definitely makes sense to have that many the first year, it's a very steep learning curve with training heifers. On the money side of things the first year our heifers supplied 4,650 litres. Budget on a gross price of 30c including vat and solids. It will cost around half of that figure for meal, fert, vet and contractors. The second year they will do more and more again the third once you have a settled herd. Plan to start calving mid Jan and be finished mid-March. That way you can dry off the start of November and give everything a rest and not be milking in the dead of winter. Heifers need a longer dry period and you will get it back in the second year and easier get them back in calf. Don't be afraid to feed them and get the heifers from good herds with good litres and solids. If you are selling calves it reduces the spring workload. I know people say to buy cows rather than heifers but once you have them trained in you have a young herd with very little mastitis/lameness issues.
Coming from sucklers you already have good experience with calving cows and grazing. It would be worthwhile spending a little now cleaning drains and reseeding a bit. Focus on getting 40 acres closest to the yard right in terms of ph, P+K, drainage/fencing/water and some new grass. Try and come up with realistic costs to get milking and then decide if its for you. A good layout of the milking shed would make milking easy. Enough units will speed up the task. See plenty of yards, everyone will tell you things they wish they did differently.
Click to expand...
AYF said:
What's the story with autumn calving?

Have the dry period in the summer, slac time in summer is bound to be nicer.
Contractor to do the silage.
Click to expand...
how am I meant to graze the cows on heavy soils through winter
 
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