€100m Beef Funding

I produce a few ton of beef all year round.
It’s not a money spinner, but it’s a way of adding value to valueless grains, iykwim.
It’s all bull beef I produce that are from holstein cows and beef bulls. Not too far from what ye are producing...

Anyhow I’m always getting from 30 to 50c less per kg than Larry offers...not a geeks from farmers or farming unions, not to mention a €100mln holiday fund!
Consider yourselves fortunate.
 
I'm going to get Lynched for this but here's my suggestion; 2 cheques €50m from Irish exchequer and €50m from Europe both made out to Larry Goodman. This would be the most economical way of handing over money that is all going to end up in his pocket either way. An unpopular statement is that a serious cut back is needed on suckler cow numbers that have more than doubled over the last 30 years, we are over supplying beef and it's killing us, encouraging suckler cows is definitely not going to do anyone with a beef animal any favours. Put 100% of the €100m in to a top up on factory cull price for beef cows, everyone would benefit from that then long term.
Its acceptable to say there are too many dairy cows in the country, but dare anyone say the same about suckler cows. National dairy herd has shrunk over the last 35yrs
I think if lads were given an incentive to pull back numbers there would be a large uptake given the mood in the sector, realistically most lads would be financially better off without them or with fewer of them, id imagine if it comes in as floated by Hogan it would be an incentive to cull poorer performing cows, but we do need an alternative for ppl otherwise there will be a sharp reduction in economic activity in large parts of the country.
 
I'm going to get Lynched for this but here's my suggestion; 2 cheques €50m from Irish exchequer and €50m from Europe both made out to Larry Goodman. This would be the most economical way of handing over money that is all going to end up in his pocket either way. An unpopular statement is that a serious cut back is needed on suckler cow numbers that have more than doubled over the last 30 years, we are over supplying beef and it's killing us, encouraging suckler cows is definitely not going to do anyone with a beef animal any favours. Put 100% of the €100m in to a top up on factory cull price for beef cows, everyone would benefit from that then long term.
Its acceptable to say there are too many dairy cows in the country, but dare anyone say the same about suckler cows. National dairy herd has shrunk over the last 35yrs

Is saying that cutting back sucker cow numbers will increase the price of Irish beef not the same as what I hear farmers up this country (north Midlands) saying.
That all the extra cows being milked down south, Cork Waterford etc. Will cause the price of milk to collapse.
 
Is saying that cutting back sucker cow numbers will increase the price of Irish beef not the same as what I hear farmers up this country (north Midlands) saying.
That all the extra cows being milked down south, Cork Waterford etc. Will cause the price of milk to collapse.
I think the difference is the co-op structure the co-ops are out to squeeze every cent they can out of world markets for the benefit of the farmer thats what they were set up to do. The factories are out to squeeze everything out of the farmer they can pay when theirs a scarcity, when they are booked up with cattle they can do what they want with prices.
 
I think the difference is the co-op structure the co-ops are out to squeeze every cent they can out of world markets for the benefit of the farmer thats what they were set up to do. The factories are out to squeeze everything out of the farmer they can pay when theirs a scarcity, when they are booked up with cattle they can do what they want with prices.
Not defending Larry for 1 second (he's quite good at looking after himself)
But if meat processing is that lucrative why are more individual's or companies not getting into it.
Did we not have a co-op that got into meat processing and only lasted for a short time.
Meat processing, In my experience is very labour intensive, hard managed, capital intensive and subject to a myriad of regulation.
All over the world is most meat processing done by massive companies.
Huge volume, low margin.
 
Is saying that cutting back sucker cow numbers will increase the price of Irish beef not the same as what I hear farmers up this country (north Midlands) saying.
That all the extra cows being milked down south, Cork Waterford etc. Will cause the price of milk to collapse.
I hear ya, believe me, but there are major differences between beef markets for Irish produce and dairy markets for Irish produce. The market just isn't there for beef.
Some of the suggestions I am seeing are actually quite good, but I know this fund will be handed out to farmers just as a payment top up which won't do any favours.
It should be called a diversication fund. Use it to grow red clover as we are not able to feed the stock we already have. Use it for organic incentives. Use it to promote an actual grass finished product.
 
I'll also ask the question how much less did suckler farmers receive for their 2018 born calves compared to 2017? I thought the trade wasn't that bad last Autumn.

Its not something that can be compared. I'm in a discussion group with 14 other suckler farmers that I would consider to be young and progressive. We do a lot of work on finances and the reality is that most in our group made very little on sucklers when profit monitors were examined. Every man has a couple of weanlings that he got €1000+ for but this was balanced by the couple that he got 650 for. When you look at average prices for well bred suckler weanlings the figure is more around €750. When you feed a cow for a year and take into account mortality and sickness, then the profit figure for suckler cows is averaging almost a minus figure. Personally, the only way for me to have a few quid is to bring cattle the whole way through to slaughter or at least to 90% finished and sell in the mart with the hope that a feed lot will buy for short keep finishing. Not everyone has the land to do that. Lads that were finishing bulls that were down 400 had a very rough year, but being down money with sucklers and selling weanlings is a permanent thing. So what you are actually asking is who lost more money. Maybe the bull finishers did this year, but that doesn't make them any more deserving of a slice of the pie than the suckler farmers IMO. We are all in this boat together.
 
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Its not something that can be compared. I'm in a discussion group with 14 other suckler farmers that I would consider to be young and progressive. We do a lot of work on finances and the reality is that most in our group made very little on sucklers when profit monitors were examined. Every man has a couple of weanlings that he got €1000+ for but this was balanced by the couple that he got 650 for. When you look at average prices for well bred suckler weanlings the figure is more around €750. When you feed a cow for a year and take into account mortality and sickness, then the profit figure for suckler cows is averaging almost a minus figure. Personally, the only way for me to have a few quid is to bring cattle the whole way through to slaughter or at least to 90% finished and sell in the mart with the hope that a feed lot will buy for short keep finishing. Not everyone has the land to do that. Lads that were finishing bulls that were down 400 had a very rough year, but being down money with sucklers and selling weanlings is a permanent thing. So what you are actually asking is who lost more money. Maybe the bull finishers did this year, but that doesn't make them any more deserving of a slice of the pie than the suckler farmers IMO. We are all in this boat together.
I think the point @Barrowsider was making was not a lot changed in suckling it has been losing money for a long time. Realistically thats why Beep and bdgp schemes are there. The story behind the 100m fund was for market disruption due to brexit. That hit finishers most not the price of weanlings. Suckling has a more long term problem and if it cant be solved inside the farm gate will it or should it be funded by others to keep it going? I dont know. Sucklers will get some of the fund thats the political reality, there is no point getting too upswt over what we want or think should be done its a political football and will end up in some sort of fudge which will be more about votes than whats best for the future of farming.
 
Not defending Larry for 1 second (he's quite good at looking after himself)
But if meat processing is that lucrative why are more individual's or companies not getting into it.
Did we not have a co-op that got into meat processing and only lasted for a short time.
Meat processing, In my experience is very labour intensive, hard managed, capital intensive and subject to a myriad of regulation.
All over the world is most meat processing done by massive companies.
Huge volume, low margin.
Im not saying the meat factories are making big money per animal, the co-ops if they wanted to maximise their profits could cut the lrice of milk until dairy farmers were losing money (look at some uk processors). The meat factories do this full time there is a different dynamic thats why more milk will not cillapse the price of milk. Historically scarcity of cattle in Ireland is the only thing that has inproved prices in Ireland. Look at the jump that came in the last few weeks, did matkets imprive that much or was there a handy 15c/kg being made? Less ducklers wonont lift the price enougg to make the other sucklers viable but it will force factories to be abit more competitive with each other. New Zealand beef farming is interesting from a commercial point of view. No subsidies sor micky mouse schemes.
 
This is what Dan O Brien thinks.
Dan O'Brien: 'The political earthquakes we were warned of didn't happen but Italy can send tremors across continent'


https://www.independent.ie/opinion/...n-send-tremors-across-continent-38163069.html

Attempts at straightforward vote-buying have also been evident. The announcement last week that €100m of taxpayers' money will be used to "compensate" already heavily subsidised business people who damage the environment (beef farmers) for turbulence in their marketplace was a particularly egregious example, both in quantum and timing.
 
Why is there so much noise about cutting back suckler cow numbers and beef cattle and the damage they do to the environment and the poor prices. Do dairy cattle not do an equal amount of damage to the environment. If there was less dairy born calves would the price of beef not be better, is that the problem. Dairy calves are a waste product or by product to allow milk to be produced. I think the government just want more dairy farmers.
 
Why is there so much noise about cutting back suckler cow numbers and beef cattle and the damage they do to the environment and the poor prices. Do dairy cattle not do an equal amount of damage to the environment. If there was less dairy born calves would the price of beef not be better, is that the problem. Dairy calves are a waste product or by product to allow milk to be produced. I think the government just want more dairy farmers.
I am not a dairy farmer but I make my living finishing dairy cross angus stock. They are not a waste product its the highest value meat produced by farmers.when you include the bonus. It is more saleable, more in demand and has a higher eating quality than the vast majority of suckler bred beef. The dicussion around reducing suckler numbers is in part because its an industry that has a large number of farmers loosing money.
 
Its not something that can be compared. I'm in a discussion group with 14 other suckler farmers that I would consider to be young and progressive. We do a lot of work on finances and the reality is that most in our group made very little on sucklers when profit monitors were examined. Every man has a couple of weanlings that he got €1000+ for but this was balanced by the couple that he got 650 for. When you look at average prices for well bred suckler weanlings the figure is more around €750. When you feed a cow for a year and take into account mortality and sickness, then the profit figure for suckler cows is averaging almost a minus figure. Personally, the only way for me to have a few quid is to bring cattle the whole way through to slaughter or at least to 90% finished and sell in the mart with the hope that a feed lot will buy for short keep finishing. Not everyone has the land to do that. Lads that were finishing bulls that were down 400 had a very rough year, but being down money with sucklers and selling weanlings is a permanent thing. So what you are actually asking is who lost more money. Maybe the bull finishers did this year, but that doesn't make them any more deserving of a slice of the pie than the suckler farmers IMO. We are all in this boat together.

Agreed, this cannot turn into a "who's losing more money" argument. Im not denying that suckler farming has been financially challenging for a long time but as @WestCorkBoy pointed this package is to compensate for losses incurred as a result of the instability caused by Brexit.

We purchased 150 continental weanling heifers last October for €10 per head less than the same number purchased in October 2017.
We killed 150 heifers (the weanlings purchased in Oct 2017) last month and while I haven't completed the full calculations we will be down approx €130 per head compared to last April. Perhaps we are the exception.

If im honest I don't believe any of us are entitled to compensation as all beef farmers should be prepared to accept the volatility of the trade. We all knew brexit was a threat but we still bought or bred stock anyhow.
 
i think that the icsa suggestion for the 100 mil was to put it into a new reps scheme if they want to get money into beef farmers pockets, not a bad idea i think if it goes back to what the original reps shemes were
 
Sold half of last years dairy bred bulls last week. Mostly Aubrac, some Herefords. Of the Aubracs, average deadweight was 325kg, 3/4 R grade, rest O's. A few were over 16 mths, average price €1,201, under 16 mths €1,302. The Herefords were under 16 mths, 60% O grade, average weight 320kg, av price €1,258. Sold a few suckler bulls, U's, made €1,620. The sucklers made more money but you couldn't complain about the dairy bred stock. I don't think they lost money. I don't accept that you can't produce milk without also producing a bad calf. I don't accept that a dairy cow needs to have an AA calf either. If dairy farmers used good bulls they would be getting €250-€300 for them in the mart all day, every day and the man that buys them could also make a margin. Lots of dairy farmers are already doing this and their calves are sold privately to beef farmers and never see the inside of a mart (or ship).

In an ideal world we would hand back the €100m if it ever materializes and also tell the IFA to stop campaigning for landowners to replace farmland with trees through their newspaper.
 
im with brucey here, 1000 euro per cow in the factory on top of 3 euro a kilo. that would get 100,000 out of the system.
And the rest of us would take even less for beef while the cow numbers flushed through then when the dust settled we would be back to where we are now with luck..
 
John Heney had an interesting viewpoint on it this week.

https://www.independent.ie/business...ut-and-highrisk-beef-production-38153322.html

Especially when this week the Teagasc chief came out again heavily promoting dairy calves. Maybe Teagasc need to reevaluate their models.

It often strikes me and it is controversial that we should be looking more towards veal/rose veal more too. Not too dissimilar to poultry/pigs it might dovetail nicely on many tillage farms.

There was another study completed recently and it stated that the most efficient beef model was bull beef but we all know it's high risk and not what consumers want.
 
If dairy farmers used good bulls they would be getting €250-€300 for them in the mart all day, every day and the man that buys them could also make a margin. Lots of dairy farmers are already doing this and their calves are sold privately to beef farmers and never see the inside of a mart (or ship).

Wise, wise words @6600 . :thumbup:
 
Sold half of last years dairy bred bulls last week. Mostly Aubrac, some Herefords. Of the Aubracs, average deadweight was 325kg, 3/4 R grade, rest O's. A few were over 16 mths, average price €1,201, under 16 mths €1,302. The Herefords were under 16 mths, 60% O grade, average weight 320kg, av price €1,258. Sold a few suckler bulls, U's, made €1,620. The sucklers made more money but you couldn't complain about the dairy bred stock. I don't think they lost money. I don't accept that you can't produce milk without also producing a bad calf. I don't accept that a dairy cow needs to have an AA calf either. If dairy farmers used good bulls they would be getting €250-€300 for them in the mart all day, every day and the man that buys them could also make a margin. Lots of dairy farmers are already doing this and their calves are sold privately to beef farmers and never see the inside of a mart (or ship).

In an ideal world we would hand back the €100m if it ever materializes and also tell the IFA to stop campaigning for landowners to replace farmland with trees through their newspaper.

The dairy bulls only made about 250 less and their mothers have a full time job.
 
The dairy bulls only made about 250 less and their mothers have a full time job.
I should have said the few sucklers weighed 390 kg and were only 14 months. 650kg live. In hindsight should have kept them another month for more weight. In a year where the price was higher the sucklers would be further ahead. I didn't want to put up my figures but there's only one way to prove a point. I've been listening to this farming's f##ked sh!te since I was a child. What I've picked up over the time is that good cattle make good money every year and don't cost any more than bad cattle, to keep it all and insulate yourself from price changes you need to breed your own, grow as much of your own feed as you can and sell everything in the factory, stay away from marts and there's no need to be washing and chopping beet all winter either. Good silage puts on weight. You won't make a fortune but it's better than losing a fortune every few years.
 
@6600 which left the most money after you have taken off the cost of keeping the suckler cow (and the purchase cost of the bought in calves)?
 
Sold half of last years dairy bred bulls last week. Mostly Aubrac, some Herefords. Of the Aubracs, average deadweight was 325kg, 3/4 R grade, rest O's. A few were over 16 mths, average price €1,201, under 16 mths €1,302. The Herefords were under 16 mths, 60% O grade, average weight 320kg, av price €1,258. Sold a few suckler bulls, U's, made €1,620. The sucklers made more money but you couldn't complain about the dairy bred stock. I don't think they lost money. I don't accept that you can't produce milk without also producing a bad calf. I don't accept that a dairy cow needs to have an AA calf either. If dairy farmers used good bulls they would be getting €250-€300 for them in the mart all day, every day and the man that buys them could also make a margin. Lots of dairy farmers are already doing this and their calves are sold privately to beef farmers and never see the inside of a mart (or ship).

In an ideal world we would hand back the €100m if it ever materializes and also tell the IFA to stop campaigning for landowners to replace farmland with trees through their newspaper.

Are you breeding those yourself @6600 ? If so, is it more profitable to keep these instead of extra dairy cows? If you didn't breed them yourself, then how much did it cost to buy and rear them?
From what I see, good dairy bull calves are still in great demand such as CH, AA, HE, BB LM or AU would cost €300 to €400+ in marts across the country these last 2 months.

I can't see how lads that are buying these calves make it add up. They have a whole lot of extra work on themselves having to put a lot of time into milk feeding calves. When that's done, you spend the whole summer feeding meal to them. When its all done and you add up your time and the money that you paid out to buy and feed the calf, your costs are comparative to keeping a suckler cow, yet if you keep the right cow and manage her and her calf correctly, you can achieve higher kill out weights and better grading. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the suckler bred animal is leaving way more money - I'm saying that there's not a lot between them?

This last few years, we have done a serious drive to try to reduce our cost per suckler cow. Fodder shortages like the winter before last can't be helped and good summers like last are not common, but on average, we have gotten our costs down a good bit. We have brought a lot shorthorn breeding in. We find that these cows are smaller, eat less, are easier on ground and better mothers with more milk. They produce just as good of calf as a big cow. We are pushing to finish more of our own bullocks of mainly a grass based diet. We are keeping a lot of heifers to 18 months where we will be trying to have them 550kg to 600kg which when sold in the back end should come into over €2/kg (and it looks like we have a private buyer for them) with never having seen a dust of meal.

I think that if any of us are doing things right, there's a bit to be made. The problem is the unforeseen stuff. Brexit. Weather events. Disease. We seem to be hit with just one after the other. You could survive one good year and one bad, but the way that things have gone there seems to be just one good quarter or at most half a year and the rest bad.

On the other hand, when you see what type of cow or heifer that a lot of suckler lads are putting the bull on, it's no wonder sucklers are making a loss. BDGP and the fact that a huge proportion of farmers interpreted BDGP wrong, have a good bit to do with it. You can't just throw mud at something and hope that if you throw enough, some will stick. You have to in the top 25% for everything - quality, efficiency, costs etc. A huge proportion of suckler farmers are not on their game in the way that dairy farmers are. This is reflected, not by profit, but by loss!

62016312_1850818765063710_6169803980508495872_n.jpg
 
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Are you breeding those yourself @6600 ? If so, is it more profitable to keep these instead of extra dairy cows? If you didn't breed them yourself, then how much did it cost to buy and rear them?
From what I see, good dairy bull calves are still in great demand such as CH, AA, HE, BB LM or AU would cost €300 to €400+ in marts across the country these last 2 months.

I can't see how lads that are buying these calves make it add up. They have a whole lot of extra work on themselves having to put a lot of time into milk feeding calves. When that's done, you spend the whole summer feeding meal to them. When its all done and you add up your time and the money that you paid out to buy and feed the calf, your costs are comparative to keeping a suckler cow, yet if you keep the right cow and manage her and her calf correctly, you can achieve higher kill out weights and better grading. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the suckler bred animal is leaving way more money - I'm saying that there's not a lot between them?

This last few years, we have done a serious drive to try to reduce our cost per suckler cow. Fodder shortages like the winter before last can't be helped and good summers like last are not common, but on average, we have gotten our costs down a good bit. We have brought a lot shorthorn breeding in. We find that these cows are smaller, eat less, are easier on ground and better mothers with more milk. They produce just as good of calf as a big cow. We are pushing to finish more of our own bullocks of mainly a grass based diet. We are keeping a lot of heifers to 18 months where we will be trying to have them 550kg to 600kg which when sold in the back end should come into over €2/kg (and it looks like we have a private buyer for them) with never having seen a dust of meal.

I think that if any of us are doing things right, there's a bit to be made. The problem is the unforeseen stuff. Brexit. Weather events. Disease. We seem to be hit with just one after the other. You could survive one good year and one bad, but the way that things have gone there seems to be just one good quarter or at most half a year and the rest bad.

On the other hand, when you see what type of cow or heifer that a lot of suckler lads are putting the bull on, it's no wonder sucklers are making a loss. BDGP and the fact that a huge proportion of farmers interpreted BDGP wrong, have a good bit to do with it. You can't just throw mud at something and hope that if you throw enough, some will stick. You have to in the top 25% for everything - quality, efficiency, costs etc. A huge proportion of suckler farmers are not on their game in the way that dairy farmers are. This is reflected, not by profit, but by loss!

They're all our own calves. Kind of at the limit for dairy atm with shed and calf rearing space. It would need a good bit more investment to go for more cows. We already have the slats for the cattle for the first winter and always brought everything to beef before. I would hazard a guess that the dairy bred calves are leaving more money, the extra costs are the milk powder and nuts and reduced weight gain, but this is offset by them not having to cover all the costs of the farm and their mothers.
The turnover from the bulls will be the same as 2 good month's milk cheques and we still have the heifers to come in the fall. I'm not convinced about having nothing on the farm other than milking cows, all eggs in one basket plus extra (manual!) work twice a day, every day. Bigger doesn't always mean more profitable. With a good setup, diet feeder, troughs so you're not constantly pushing feed back in and rubber on slats there is very little work fattening cattle. Currently weaning the calves off meal with the good grass so very little work with them on a daily basis either.
We just tried doing them as bulls as that's what we always did before and it seems to work. The other alternative of keeping them as bullocks would mean having them around for another summer and finish them at 20-22 mths. Don't know if they would come into any more money really and would probably eat as much. Plus don't have the grass. Could have just stored them over the winter and sold them as yearlings but if they made €800 it would have been a very good day, plus if you get locked up you're rightly goosed!
You're dead right about margins being tight for lads buying the calves, but its probably the most profitable system other than dairy or suckling. Buying big cattle is like gambling but with high stakes. By buying calves at least you are limiting your losses. If we hadn't gone dairy we would likely have started rearing calves to beef, shed space and the number of groups of cattle you must have is a massive limiting factor with sucklers.
 
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