€100m Beef Funding

Discussion in 'Stock Talk' started by mixed fleet, May 29, 2019.

  1. nashmach

    nashmach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    43,736
    Location:
    Wexford, Ireland
    I can't say I'm one bit surprised to see something like this in the T&C's especially given the focus on climate change.

    I can't remember if it was to yourself or another member that I mentioned an environmental kick on this a few weeks back and here we go....

    Conspiracy theory in me also looks at the day it is published..... (few days for the dust to settle unless you have internet)
     
  2. ptfarmer

    ptfarmer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2011
    Messages:
    427
    Whats the point in reducing Suckler cow numbers while Dairy Cow numbers go up and up??
     
    6600 likes this.
  3. bruceythom

    bruceythom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,022
    Location:
    Ireland Midlands!!!
    Let's just look at the situation;
    Over the last 30yrs the dairy herd has shrunk while the suckler herd has over doubled, a fact most people won't hear of.
    Beef is in oversupply.
    Beef is heavily subsidised.
    Financially supporting anything other than a herd reduction would be counterproductive for the carbon emissions than we are falling short of.
     
  4. Mf 7715

    Mf 7715 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,620
    If your signed up to the BDGP can you reduce cow numbers? I don't think so.
     
  5. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    You can. But you still have to reach your targets based on your reference number. I think your reference number is 80% of your cow numbers from your reference year.
     
    Mf 7715 likes this.
  6. Ozzy Scott

    Ozzy Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,970
    I still think this money should be thrown back at them as we are just been bought out short term.

    I lost allot of money, it was my own fault, i pay the price. I knew brexit was a serious issue, I was hoping the uncertainty might have offered opportunity. if I had made money, im sure I wouldnt be offering to hand it back, either do I have my hand out looking for money.

    Please use a small bit of this money to make sure/investigate, if there is fair trading terms further up the supply chain.
     
    no name, dmaxman, muckymanor and 7 others like this.
  7. ptfarmer

    ptfarmer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2011
    Messages:
    427
    Wasn't there a rescue package for Dairy only a few years ago involving intervention for milk powder??. Its inevitiable given the rate of expansion of Dairy here and elsehwhere that price pressures which beef farmers no all about will start impacting on Dairy too. Some in the industry are already mentioning bringing back quotas
     
    tanko and gone like this.
  8. marco

    marco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,566
    on dairy, i'd say they'll keep the prices up untill they get the numbers they want in the system. then they will start pulling the price.

    it the fund is based on a reduction of numbers they can f88k right off. i mean how exactly will that help anyones buisness.
     
  9. Mikeyboy

    Mikeyboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
    Messages:
    429
    Location:
    Midlands
    The negativity towards suckler reductions really is puzzling. It's been proven in Newford that even with top management the high end suckler is either loss making or break even at best. There have been numerous calls for handouts in one form or another as the suckler man, who I have no problem with, is loosing money.
    Being paid to get rid of or reduce the amount of these loss making animals is win win. On reflection the market isn't there for the 400kg plus carcases, the piece de la resistance of suckler beef production. Not wanting to exit or reduce this suckler beef farming is akin to a battered wife not wanting to leave her husband. It's happened before and the same thing will happen again. There's no reason for these farmers to exit beef production, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    As has been mentioned the volume of dairy calvings as opposed to the colour of the calf has removed the floor from calf prices. Combining the dairy beef index and improvements in sexed semen the only result I see is better quality calves in higher supply for lower prices. Taking these to beef within 24 months has the capability to leave beef farmers to specialise the beef market as before. A rearer, grower and finisher. If these O- grading animals can leave a margin they're automatically ahead of the suckler. Furthermore dairy bred and hand reared stock tend to be more docile which is another advantage. The poorer land type farmed by certain suckler farmers would surely easier carry a 4-500 kg Angus or Hereford heifer than a grown suckler cow. The only thing consistent in farming is change....it's not always a bad thing either.
     
    JohnBoy, DES1 and jay gatsby like this.
  10. Mf240

    Mf240 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5,024
    The fund will end up a complete mess. This is ireland dont forget. Funny how the fund was announced before the elections but the details only coming out now. Very convenient.

    Id agree completely with you that dairy expansion will only end up one way. It's maybe not a popular opinion but it's all ready happening, prices were cut this year and at the same time wages increased at the top.
    It will go like every other farm sector eventually.

    I'm going to be ate alive for this but when I hear lads talking about quality suckler cattle and poor quality dairy cross cattle the reality is that the beef is every bit as good to eat off both.
     
    nomoneyhere and nashmach like this.
  11. Mf240

    Mf240 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5,024
    Carbon emissions me hole. edit no offence Bruce, :laugh:
     
    nashmach, gone and 6600 like this.
  12. bruceythom

    bruceythom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,022
    Location:
    Ireland Midlands!!!
    :lol::lol:
     
    Mf240 likes this.
  13. Arthur

    Arthur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    16,585
    Location:
    Munster
    It's all bullshit (no pun intended) the EU will happily pay 50million if it helps to fight off beef from outside the EU, Ireland will happily match it if it keeps jobs in beef processing and they will get it back in the various taxes, we are still banging our heads off a wall if we have to accept a price that is way below the cost of production.
     
    bruceythom and gone like this.
  14. nashmach

    nashmach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    43,736
    Location:
    Wexford, Ireland
    Does anyone see this getting legs and becoming an election issue? FG won't be seen too rosy because of it.
     
    bruceythom and 6600 like this.
  15. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    From my perspective there is no easy answer to this. I personally think that it would be better if it was not paid at all and beef was paid for properly.

    I do have issue with the IFA stance on it. They have campaigned for the last 12 months for money to be paid to farmers per cow which would only see suckler cow numbers increase. I have said it before that you can't solve a beef crisis by adding more beef.

    Put the money into developing markets for beef. Put it into current markets in ways in which we can have better assurance of fair trade. Giving it direct to farmers is only a way of furrowing it to meat factories without scrutiny.
     
    CORK and 6600 like this.
  16. bruceythom

    bruceythom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,022
    Location:
    Ireland Midlands!!!
    That's what I've been saying since it was first mentioned.
    Very same goes for dairy farmers using more beef genetics to "improve the value" of stock. That will do no one any favours with the exception of the processors.

    I want to see this money going to beef farmers, but it absolutely should not be used to encourage the already flooded beef animal population IMV. Use it for something else on beef farms that would be counter to increasing the beef production.
     
    Burdizzo and muckymanor like this.
  17. tanko

    tanko Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    You can cut your cow numbers down to one cow and still qualify for the scheme as long as you meet the t&c's of the scheme.
     
  18. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    But you have to meet your reference numbers. eg in 2020, 50% of your females have to be genotyped 4 star or more. So theoretically you could meet the scheme t&c by keeping heifers instead of cows. If your magic number was 40, then you would need to have 20 out of 40 of your females in the 4 or 5 star category. Technically for the scheme you can't reduce the number of breeding animals that you have but you can change the type of animals that you have from cows to heifers.
     
  19. tanko

    tanko Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Yeah, thats true, genotyped 4/5 star heifers over 16 months on Oct 31st next will do instead of cows but at least one 4/5 star cow has to be kept.
    The question was asked can the number of cows be reduced and it can.
    I reckon there will be a massive drop in suckler cow numbers when the BDGP is over if there isn't a big improvement in beef prices soon which is highly unlikely anyway.
    I always thought that the day milk quotas were abolished was going to be bad news for sucklers and thats the way its turned out.
     
  20. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    I know quite a number of farmers who have gotten out of sucklers while in BDGP over the last 2 years. There has been no penalty on them.
     
  21. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    It appears that half of today's IFJ has been dedicated to this €100 million fund. What gives a media outlet the right to dictate how it should be divided? They have proven themselves to be a bias media outlet at that over the last few years, by publishing articles which support some farmers but which do not benefit a majority of farmers.

    It's time to wake up lads! The solution to a beef price crisis is not to produce more beef. It's not to incentivise farmers to keep producing beef at a loss. It's time to face reality. There's nothing for a farmer to gain by keeping suckler cows if he or she is currently making a loss on them. The solution for suckler farmers is to reduce cow numbers - keep something else, calf to beef, sheep, rent a good portion of land out or plant it into forestry. I'm sentimental for sucklers, but the fact is that the whole suckler system is just eating itself up. The government don't have enough money to save suckler farmers - they don't even want to save them. They just want to save the agri-processing jobs and they are doing this by supporting and developing calf to beef systems.

    The cheapest option in the long term is to pay farmers a once off to reduce numbers and get out altogether in some cases.
     
    bruceythom and WestCorkBoy like this.
  22. muckymanor

    muckymanor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,581
    Been thinking about this €100m fund over the weekend. It strikes me, aren't we going at it from the wrong end??? "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. But teach him to fish and give him a lake to fish in, and he should be able to feed himself". So if there's a fer euro per animal paid out to suckler men or beef finishers etc, then it will satisfy them for a few months. But in reality, it does nothing in the medium or long term (6 months to 5 years) for anyone involved in producing animals for meat except set them against each other.

    Ok, we know what the problem is. Put simply, there is an oversupply of cattle for the markets that we can sell into. This is caused by both lack of demand from these markets, and over production in Ireland. When we look back at years gone by when beef prices have been reasonable, its easy to identify hills and troughs in supply and demand. Its clear that a few things have helped and hindered beef prices in recent years.
    1. Export of dairy calves - when we got a lot of them out of the country, it usually meant that beef prices in the year after that were stronger and vice versa.
    2. Export of older cattle. Again, it took cattle out of the system to influence prices.

    Everything that we read and hear about France, Spain, Netherlands, etc. is that they just can't get enough of our dairy calves to meet demand. The hindrance is the transport and lairage. I'd be all for our government setting up a committee to spend some of this €100m to set up short to medium term leases of proper lairage in Calais for our dairy calves to try to increase the capacity that we can ship over there. Another thing is to grant aid the purchase or upgrading of cattle haulage trailers to meet the proper requirements for shipping calves. Further to that, grant aid some of the shipping companies to increase carrying capacity for irish calves.

    Beyond that, with Dairygold, Irish Agricultural Industry has developed the most recognisable butter brand in the world. This was a huge PR exercise. Boundaries were broken down. Walls were moved. Our beef industry needs to take example from this and new markets need to be developed across the world. The next 6 months are going to bring a huge opportunity for meat producers with the opening of the floodgates following China's meat crisis that us currently underway. As a country, and a brand, we don't seem to be able to get over certain small sticking points which as a whole, hold us back from developing our beef industry. Right now, we should have huge delegations of people visiting China promoting our beef - just as our dairy producers did 4 or 5 years ago. We should have an open invitation for for Chinese delegations to come here to view how we produce our meat and deals should be being hammered out and in place in order to meet China's demand once it hits!

    I'd be all for putting money into that. As much as I would like a quick fix of a few euro in my pocket, I'd prefer to see a sustainable demand for our meat which would provide realistic prices for everyone in the production chain - not just a select few.
     
    towbar, Mf240, Mf 7715 and 5 others like this.
  23. Mf240

    Mf240 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5,024
    Just noticed you changed your avatar to the Swingers party
     
  24. bruceythom

    bruceythom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,022
    Location:
    Ireland Midlands!!!
    :lol::lol:
     
  25. nashmach

    nashmach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    43,736
    Location:
    Wexford, Ireland
    It's not that easy to deal with the Chinese though mucky. I've no doubt Bord Bia and meat processors are out there pressing the flesh but they as a nation are notorious for the length it takes to build a relationship with them before it translates to sales.

    I've seen this on the services side let alone raw commodities.

    There seems to be another twist introduced on this during Friday saying that farmers had to either in GLAS or Quality Assurance to qualify. That won't go down well with a significant number of suckler farmers I imagine.
     

Share This Page