3 Card Poker

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
Pen of simmental bullocks here (all born March to July 2019). 550 to 580kg.

What to do?

1. Sell at the mart now (Worth about €2.10 to €2.20 per kg) ?

2. Let to grass and kill in may & June?

3. Feed for 60 days and slaughter (9/10 will kill U Grade)?

What would you do?
I find that simmentals won's sell in the mart as well as LM or CH of similar weights, but when I slaughter them, 9 out of 10 will kill a U grade.
If I let them to grass, it would mean extra fertilizer, and may mean selling some younger store cattle to leave enough space.
I have plenty of good quality silage.
 

Nashty

Well-Known Member
Pen of simmental bullocks here (all born March to July 2019). 550 to 580kg.

What to do?

1. Sell at the mart now (Worth about €2.10 to €2.20 per kg) ?

2. Let to grass and kill in may & June?

3. Feed for 60 days and slaughter (9/10 will kill U Grade)?

What would you do?
I find that simmentals won's sell in the mart as well as LM or CH of similar weights, but when I slaughter them, 9 out of 10 will kill a U grade.
If I let them to grass, it would mean extra fertilizer, and may mean selling some younger store cattle to leave enough space.
I have plenty of good quality silage.
I'd say you are looking at 100 days inside being honest. I would doubt if you will get the level of finish required on a simmental in 60 days inside. They will be circa 700kg dead I presume if they are good U grade bullocks? Unlikely to do 2kg liveweight gain per day inside for the 60 days of finishing unless you are going firing in meal ad lib maybe and even then I wouldn't think a bullock would do that thrive. If they were mine I would leave them inside and finish them. They are back in the marts at present, and simmentals don't sell as well as charolais as you said in marts, letting them to grass is the other option but again, they won't finish any faster than the 100 days I reckon.
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
I'd say you are looking at 100 days inside being honest. I would doubt if you will get the level of finish required on a simmental in 60 days inside. They will be circa 700kg dead I presume if they are good U grade bullocks? Unlikely to do 2kg liveweight gain per day inside for the 60 days of finishing unless you are going firing in meal ad lib maybe and even then I wouldn't think a bullock would do that thrive. If they were mine I would leave them inside and finish them. They are back in the marts at present, and simmentals don't sell as well as charolais as you said in marts, letting them to grass is the other option but again, they won't finish any faster than the 100 days I reckon.

I normally target an average weight of 650kg for slaughter for them and find that they will average about 350kg dead.
I'd be looking at approximately €1250 on average for them in the mart as they stand now. At 350kg dead, and grading U-, they'd come into €1420 at today's base price. I'd be hopeful that prices might rise in the next 2 months, but obviously can't guarantee that.
 

Arthur

Well-Known Member
I'd be going to grass with them, less of a meal bill and you will need less silage so what silage you don't use will not need replacing, factory end of June/ early July before the glut of cattle approaching 30 months comes, or mart then depending on the trade.
 

Kieran97

Well-Known Member
Grass is probably most cost effective option, marts appear to be back slightly since the factory prices dropped.

We let a few HEX bullocks off there a few weeks back In the 400-450 kg bracket and did very well. Wouldn't think they'd do as well now.

Its a toss up so between 2 and 3, which is going to be more cost effective: x Ton of fertiliser vs y ton of meal. 90 days in the shed is ambitious imo too.
 

marco

Well-Known Member
Sell in the mart, if you feed them as lib for 70 days. Meal must be nearing 300. That's 200 odd in meal. It's no advantage to you. Let the young stores out to grass as they will have a better conversion, your at the end of the fattening period and as they get bigger the conversation will slow as they put on fat. We sold 30 last week off the slatts. No cutting for grades or messing saying their full. Your getting paid for cattle with a full belly.

And you'll have a cheque in a week.

Fertiliser is up and meal is up.

It'll be less work too which is good, and if you sell in the next week you'll probably be in before the spring rush. So might have more customers for your cattle.
 

Nashty

Well-Known Member
I normally target an average weight of 650kg for slaughter for them and find that they will average about 350kg dead.
I'd be looking at approximately €1250 on average for them in the mart as they stand now. At 350kg dead, and grading U-, they'd come into €1420 at today's base price. I'd be hopeful that prices might rise in the next 2 months, but obviously can't guarantee that.
If you think you will get the 1250 at present for them in the mart as things stand then I think you have answered your own question already. Wouldn't guarantee that they would make it though, they are back a bit the last fortnight local to us. Grass isn't free either in spite of what some people think, particularly when you said you might have to sell a few young cattle to accommodate them.
 

nashmach

Well-Known Member
If you think you will get the 1250 at present for them in the mart as things stand then I think you have answered your own question already. Wouldn't guarantee that they would make it though, they are back a bit the last fortnight local to us. Grass isn't free either in spite of what some people think, particularly when you said you might have to sell a few young cattle to accommodate them.

And it could be another 6-8 weeks before they see grass and then that is a big chunk of time gone.

You'll find it hard to get a decent fat score on Simmentals with 60 days of feeding too in my view.
 

13spanner

Well-Known Member
Put them on DoneDeal.
Put 35 bulls on it last week. First lad to look at them bought them. Local fella. Very happy with what I got. No dragging them to marts. Fattening them would have been to risky.
 

ithastopay

Well-Known Member
Pen of simmental bullocks here (all born March to July 2019). 550 to 580kg.

What to do?

1. Sell at the mart now (Worth about €2.10 to €2.20 per kg) ?

2. Let to grass and kill in may & June?

3. Feed for 60 days and slaughter (9/10 will kill U Grade)?

What would you do?
I find that simmentals won's sell in the mart as well as LM or CH of similar weights, but when I slaughter them, 9 out of 10 will kill a U grade.
If I let them to grass, it would mean extra fertilizer, and may mean selling some younger store cattle to leave enough space.
I have plenty of good quality silage.
If you didn’t own the cattle today, what
would you do?
As a farmer would you buy a 575kg bullock in the mart bring him home and feed him on meal for 60 days?
Or would you buy the bullock and put him out to grass and bring him to the factory in May or June?

I don’t know any farmer buying stores who would buy them for either option 2 or 3.

I’d say you’ll have as much out of option 1 as you will have from option 2 or 3.
 

jay gatsby

Well-Known Member
If you didn’t own the cattle today, what
would you do?
As a farmer would you buy a 575kg bullock in the mart bring him home and feed him on meal for 60 days?
Or would you buy the bullock and put him out to grass and bring him to the factory in May or June?

I don’t know any farmer buying stores who would buy them for either option 2 or 3.

I’d say you’ll have as much out of option 1 as you will have from option 2 or 3.
Great logic!
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
If you didn’t own the cattle today, what
would you do?
As a farmer would you buy a 575kg bullock in the mart bring him home and feed him on meal for 60 days?
Or would you buy the bullock and put him out to grass and bring him to the factory in May or June?

I don’t know any farmer buying stores who would buy them for either option 2 or 3.

I’d say you’ll have as much out of option 1 as you will have from option 2 or 3.
My biggest issue with bringing them to the mart is that they don't sell well compared to comparable weights in different breeds. There is a conception that they are harder than other breeds to finish, that they are harder to put flesh on than other breeds and that they ultimately cost more to finish than other breeds. I have finished a good few of my own simmentals over the last few years and have found that they are not the worst to put flesh onto. People say that they are big framed and have to be fed into big weights and on to 30 months to get cover on them and to get them to grade and this is the conception that buyers in the mart have of them when I sell them and therefore they value them less than other breeds. In fact the majority of my bred simmentals that I have slaughtered were under 25 months, weighed 650kg or less live and killed out U grade with fat score 2 or 3. So my own view of my own simmentals is that I don't get the value of them when I bring them to the mart. That's why my preference is to slaughter them.
 

Danube

Well-Known Member
My biggest issue with bringing them to the mart is that they don't sell well compared to comparable weights in different breeds. There is a conception that they are harder than other breeds to finish, that they are harder to put flesh on than other breeds and that they ultimately cost more to finish than other breeds. I have finished a good few of my own simmentals over the last few years and have found that they are not the worst to put flesh onto. People say that they are big framed and have to be fed into big weights and on to 30 months to get cover on them and to get them to grade and this is the conception that buyers in the mart have of them when I sell them and therefore they value them less than other breeds. In fact the majority of my bred simmentals that I have slaughtered were under 25 months, weighed 650kg or less live and killed out U grade with fat score 2 or 3. So my own view of my own simmentals is that I don't get the value of them when I bring them to the mart. That's why my preference is to slaughter them.

I find the same when selling simmental bulls compared to their limousin comrades. I think the simmentals are great growthy animals.
 

ithastopay

Well-Known Member
My biggest issue with bringing them to the mart is that they don't sell well compared to comparable weights in different breeds. There is a conception that they are harder than other breeds to finish, that they are harder to put flesh on than other breeds and that they ultimately cost more to finish than other breeds. I have finished a good few of my own simmentals over the last few years and have found that they are not the worst to put flesh onto. People say that they are big framed and have to be fed into big weights and on to 30 months to get cover on them and to get them to grade and this is the conception that buyers in the mart have of them when I sell them and therefore they value them less than other breeds. In fact the majority of my bred simmentals that I have slaughtered were under 25 months, weighed 650kg or less live and killed out U grade with fat score 2 or 3. So my own view of my own simmentals is that I don't get the value of them when I bring them to the mart. That's why my preference is to slaughter them.

There’s not much credit given to the people who have bought and finished all breeds and types of store cattle for years, whether they buy and finish a load a year, a month, a week or a day, the vast majority are doing it to make a profit, there’s a much greater amount of experience of buying and finishing cattle on the buyers side than on the sellers side.

Buyers set the price of store cattle, while there may be very high prices at times, for various reasons..
Prices average out over time, buyers pay different prices for different breeds and grades of animals, based on experience of feeding and finishing.

Is there any point in starting another, what to do thread about mart v factory, when you have your mind made up before staring the thread?
There is plenty of knowledge and experience on feeding and finishing cattle on this forum.
Asking for it, would be your fourth option and imv your best one.

Your happy with your system and the results it brings, stick at it, if you’re looking for options and advice, to improve what your doing, then look to someone who is doing it a bit better.

I’d always be looking at what the best farmers are doing.
As I said earlier, I don’t know of any farmers practicing options 2 or 3, as neither achieve much profit.

I should be happy, if more farmers sold cattle at light weights, it would reduce the overall amount of beef being processed.

You have the cattle, you can do any of the 3 options, if you didn’t have the cattle, I don’t think you’d be going to buy the stores to practice option 2 or 3.
It won’t matter which option you go for,
the difference the profit or loss from any of the 3 options, will be negligible in the overall scheme of things.
 
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Nashty

Well-Known Member
There’s not much credit given to the people who have bought and finished all breeds and types of store cattle for years, whether they buy and finish a load a year, a month, a week or a day, the vast majority are doing it to make a profit, there’s a much greater amount of experience of buying and finishing cattle on the buyers side than on the sellers side.

Buyers set the price of store cattle, while there may be very high prices at times, for various reasons..
Prices average out over time, buyers pay different prices for different breeds and grades of animals, based on experience of feeding and finishing.

Is there any point in starting another, what to do thread about mart v factory, when you have your mind made up before staring the thread?
There is plenty of knowledge and experience on feeding and finishing cattle on this forum.
Asking for it, would be your fourth option and imv your best one.

Your happy with your system and the results it brings, stick at it, if you’re looking for options and advice, to improve what your doing, then look to someone who is doing it a bit better.

I’d always be looking at what the best farmers are doing.
As I said earlier, I don’t know of any farmers practicing options 2 or 3, as neither achieve the much profit.

I should be happy, if more farmers sold cattle at light weights, it would reduce the overall amount of beef being processed.

You have the cattle, you can do any of the 3 options, if you didn’t have the cattle, I don’t think you’d be going to buy the stores to practice option 2 or 3.
It won’t matter which option you go for,
the difference the profit or loss from any of the 3 options, will be negligible in the overall scheme of things.
You are correct in everything you say above. Mucky also correct about the simmentals also being harder sold at marts at times which probably prompted the question in the first place, and sur there is never any harm in a bit of a discussion. Finishing cattle in this country is generally about scale at this stage, it isn't simple finishing a few here and there anymore. In general, the biggest finishers still seem to be doing ok and that is why they stay at it, in spite of all the poor mouthing but it's the smaller independent lads that have suffered the most.
 

Peter

Well-Known Member
You are correct in everything you say above. Mucky also correct about the simmentals also being harder sold at marts at times which probably prompted the question in the first place, and sur there is never any harm in a bit of a discussion. Finishing cattle in this country is generally about scale at this stage, it isn't simple finishing a few here and there anymore. In general, the biggest finishers still seem to be doing ok and that is why they stay at it, in spite of all the poor mouthing but it's the smaller independent lads that have suffered the most.

Its not about scale here. All animals bought in here have to pay their way and leave some sort of a profit to allow me to stay in business. Any discussion on finishing cattle or buying in cattle in the mart on this forum has gone the same direction. There need to be more content posted about feeding cattle to their full potential. Feeding u grade cattle into dead weights of 350 kg would be knowing playing the wildcat card in poker imo.
 

Nashty

Well-Known Member
Its not about scale here. All animals bought in here have to pay their way and leave some sort of a profit to allow me to stay in business. Any discussion on finishing cattle or buying in cattle in the mart on this forum has gone the same direction. There need to be more content posted about feeding cattle to their full potential. Feeding u grade cattle into dead weights of 350 kg would be knowing playing the wildcat card in poker imo.
The scale allows most of these guys to have contracts with the factories. I don't really see that there is much of a profit out of fattening cattle without a contract at this stage from our own experience at home. Agree totally with you re carcase weights, a continental steer weighing 350kg dead is not leaving much profit regardless of how they grade.
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
Agree totally with you re carcase weights, a continental steer weighing 350kg dead is not leaving much profit regardless of how they grade.
At the end of the day he will still leave you more than selling him as a weanling. A 325kg simmentals weanling will average about €700 in the mart. That's for keeping a cow and a calf for a year. Keep him another 12 months and get him into 650kg and he's worth €1450 at today's beef price. As @ithastopay rightly says, cattle buyers are out there to make money. But there's no harm in a lad that's breeding his own stock trying to make money too.
 

Nashty

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day he will still leave you more than selling him as a weanling. A 325kg simmentals weanling will average about €700 in the mart. That's for keeping a cow and a calf for a year. Keep him another 12 months and get him into 650kg and he's worth €1450 at today's beef price. As @ithastopay rightly says, cattle buyers are out there to make money. But there's no harm in a lad that's breeding his own stock trying to make money too.
Absolutely no harm at all, I would say though that trying to get him to 400kg deadweight would leave more money again more than likely.
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
Absolutely no harm at all, I would say though that trying to get him to 400kg deadweight would leave more money again more than likely.
Then I suppose it goes back to my original post. I have a good idea of what I'll get for them in the mart. I have a good idea of what it will cost me to get them to a 350kg carcass. Does it pay me to bring them to a 400kg carcass? I neither grow my own grain nor do I buy enough milled feed to get any reduction in feed costs. And on the other hand I don't supply cattle to factories at a scale where I can negotiate much higher of a price than I get. Is there greater profit in the last 50kg of carcass weight? I suppose that's round about the reason why I started the thread.
 

Nashty

Well-Known Member
Then I suppose it goes back to my original post. I have a good idea of what I'll get for them in the mart. I have a good idea of what it will cost me to get them to a 350kg carcass. Does it pay me to bring them to a 400kg carcass? I neither grow my own grain nor do I buy enough milled feed to get any reduction in feed costs. And on the other hand I don't supply cattle to factories at a scale where I can negotiate much higher of a price than I get. Is there greater profit in the last 50kg of carcass weight? I suppose that's round about the reason why I started the thread.
Roughly speaking to put on the extra 50kg of deadweight, will require 90kg of liveweight gain, which on an indoor diet of good quality silage and say 6kg of ration (giving a feed cost of 1.68 euro per day for the meal for a period of 60 days say) means they will eat 100 euro worth of meal to gain 200 euro roughly in the sale price. Then you have to factor in the cost of the silage also, I don't know what value you are putting on it as it's your own but if you were buying it at 25 euro per bale then say the animal ate 3.5 bales in the 60 days then there would only be pennies of a profit in it. One thing I would say though from my own experience is that cattle grade better at their full genetic killout weights rather than trying to get them killed younger and lighter, not taking any account of that in above costings as you are confident they will grade Us anyways. I still think I would sell them if you can get what you think you will get for them in the mart, much less work and less risk and as the poster said above, there will be no real major difference in the profit at the end of the day.
 

ithastopay

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day he will still leave you more than selling him as a weanling. A 325kg simmentals weanling will average about €700 in the mart. That's for keeping a cow and a calf for a year. Keep him another 12 months and get him into 650kg and he's worth €1450 at today's beef price. As @ithastopay rightly says, cattle buyers are out there to make money. But there's no harm in a lad that's breeding his own stock trying to make money too.
Mucky if your fit to buy a 325kg weanling for €700, that’s €2.15/kg.
Keep them for a year and gain 325kg and sell for for €2.23/kg at 650kg.
That’s a gross margin of €750/year.
Sell the suckler cows and go at that full time.
Even it you only got them to today’s weights of 575kg in a year and they came into €1250, that’s €550, a good margin also.
If those those returns can be achieved, I can’t understand why you’d bother calving suckler cows.
You’d surely carry one and half of them,
in place of a cow and a calf. Less work and more margin, lighter stock to carry on your ground too.

It would surely make more money than suckling?
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
Mucky if your fit to buy a 325kg weanling for €700, that’s €2.15/kg.
Keep them for a year and gain 325kg and sell for for €2.23/kg at 650kg.

I recall a reply that you made to something that I posted last year when i wasnt happy with the prices that i was getting for weanlings in which you said that if I wasn't happy then I should change my system and truth be told I respected your advice and promised myself, based on what you said, that I wasn't going to sell cattle for a price that I wasn't happy with anymore. Its not a reflection on any finisher or any buyer that ever bought an animal that I produced. Its a reflection of me trying to make more of what I have and having no option but to try to make some type of living out of it. And don't get me wrong, I'm doing what I want to be doing but I want to make it sustainable because selling animals that I make little or nothing on isn't sustainable and that's not a reflection of farmers, feeders or finishers that buy cattle, rather a reflection of beef prices. And maybe I won't always do things right, but as the old saying goes, a man can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. I find this place and people like yourself a great resource. People posting replies such as @Peter did this morning about finishing continental cattle at heavier weights gets me thinking about how I can change and adapt they system that I have in order to get more from it. Without experience, I rely on agri media and advisory for to set out a plan - in fairness, agri media and advisory appear to me to advise that the way forward is to am for 350kg carcass at as young of age as possible.

At home last year we sat down to set out a plan which saw us cut cow numbers. We have a certain number of cows that will produce calves that leave reasonable profit year on year and we will continue with them. But for other cattle, logistically and time wise, we go with easier calving bulls because we can't always be with them when calving, we go with easier calving bulls on heifers and we put different breeds onto cows to breed replacements.

With less cows we can keep on to the weanlings that we used to sell (often only broke even on them and sometimes lost money) and we can bring them to stores at 18 months or to slaughter. It has a whole load of advantages for us. Animals have little or no stress that they would have if they went through the mart, no weight loss as a result and no lull in thrive. Also less sickness. I'm fattening animals that I know the history of. To me, all that gives me a good advantage over buying weanlings.

Simmental bull has been very valuable to us in recent years. We have introduced a good few breeding females into the herd from him. But the truth is that they don't sell well as weanlings and even as stores they are a bit behind other continentals of the same weight. Looking at online marts over the last few weeks, I have no doubt that you'll buy reasonably good quality simmentals weanling bulls for feeding at €2.00 to €2.20 / kg on average - maybe not in the weeks gone by because prices were a bit off the wall, but on average over the year
 
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