Cap 2023-2027

indecisive sort

Well-Known Member
entered into a long term lease myself recently for approx 70% of my farm , tenant will collect all of the subs , been hearing a bit of speculation regarding how leasing out entitlements will work and how in order to collect , environmental measures will need to be taken . anyone know if this will fall to the tenant farming the ground or the landlord who owns it ?

perhaps not decided upon yet ?
 

candor

Moderator/IT Guy
Ms awards are expensive to establish and have poor persistence
No more expensive than other reseeds in terms of the work done to establish. The seed cost for the same seeding rate came in at roughly €10 per acre more expensive compared with a general grass mixture. The seed cost €97 per acre at 15kg.

We are farming organically so no spray or fertiliser costs and it's growing away well.

I'll come back to you in 10 years on the persistence. We'll be doing holistic planned grazing (similar to mob grazing in some respects) and I think the various species stand a better chance at persisting using that type of grazing management.
 

Ozzy Scott

Well-Known Member
Can you expand on the soil sampling bit, or point me in the right direction for books or papers ect?
My biggest cost was I corrected my soil just using the Ph as a sole measurement by applying calcium lime. When in fact I should have been using dolomitic lime, but the Morgans test reads Magnesium incorrectly, so even though I was Index 4 for Mg on standard soil test, my Mg was on the floor. Corrected my problem buying a much more expensive Magnesium that probably cost me 25k extra over the last decade.
 

Ozzy Scott

Well-Known Member
entered into a long term lease myself recently for approx 70% of my farm , tenant will collect all of the subs , been hearing a bit of speculation regarding how leasing out entitlements will work and how in order to collect , environmental measures will need to be taken . anyone know if this will fall to the tenant farming the ground or the landlord who owns it ?

perhaps not decided upon yet ?
Tennant.

I assume the tennant will pay out whatever % you agreed on the basic payment part (whatever that's called in the new system), and retain the Greening part (whatever that is called now) like before. Is leasing of entitlement not finished under the next system?
 

Ozzy Scott

Well-Known Member
The action is soil sampling and liming - so the financial benefit for most will be in spreading lime.

Can you expand on the multi-species sward lack of reward? We are lead to believe that it's going to be the future of grazing in this country?
I don't have any MSS in longer than 5 yrs, and put in a field each year up to this point. Yes it *may* grow better, but if you cant get on a graze it, its of little benefit. Huge bare patches not intercepting light for photosynthesis is a serious concern of mine.

On *my ground and in my system* a diverse grass sward with clovers using low or no Synthetic N, will kick the bejasus out of MSS.
 

indecisive sort

Well-Known Member
Tennant.

I assume the tennant will pay out whatever % you agreed on the basic payment part (whatever that's called in the new system), and retain the Greening part (whatever that is called now) like before. Is leasing of entitlement not finished under the next system?
No , The tenant is retaining 100% of the payments but I am receiving a large flat rate rent
 

Ozzy Scott

Well-Known Member
No , The tenant is retaining 100% of the payments but I am receiving a large flat rate rent
Oh yes, you were leasing that out earlier in the year. My online offer would be putting alot of extra cash in your pocket now!!!

Sure you will have no worries with your agreement. Will you have to "sell" your entitlements to the tennant? Will these cause a big tax issue for you?
 

Mf240

Well-Known Member
Whats the story if you had a parcel of land with no entitelments. Can you buy low value ones and let them increase with convergance.
 

indecisive sort

Well-Known Member
Oh yes, you were leasing that out earlier in the year. My online offer would be putting alot of extra cash in your pocket now!!!

Sure you will have no worries with your agreement. Will you have to "sell" your entitlements to the tennant? Will these cause a big tax issue for you?
obviously its not within my control what the new programme dictates but as long as the tenant pays me 270 per annum for ten years , I honestly dont care if the entitlements are taken off me and given to him
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
I don't have any MSS in longer than 5 yrs, and put in a field each year up to this point. Yes it *may* grow better, but if you cant get on a graze it, its of little benefit. Huge bare patches not intercepting light for photosynthesis is a serious concern of mine.

On *my ground and in my system* a diverse grass sward with clovers using low or no Synthetic N, will kick the bejasus out of MSS.

Thanks for that. I'm working towards a diverse sward with clover too but I had intended that MSS would be a big part of it. It's good to have all perspectives.
 

Rusty Spade

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. I'm working towards a diverse sward with clover too but I had intended that MSS would be a big part of it. It's good to have all perspectives.
MSS has worked well in Ireland with the last few years.

The test of MSS here will be the persistency and sward recovery after a wet year where cattle still have to get out in less than ideal conditions to graze.

I'll be avoiding it until I see it on heavy ground in a normal year or normal ground in a wet year. I have doubts that the chicory and plantain will survive those conditions and, so far anyway, over seeding has proved marginally beneficial wherever I've come across it.

You'll still have a grass/clover sward at the end of it but 3-4 years benefits under good soil conditions seems a good bit too low to be pinning our whole grassland future on, in my view?
 

paddysdream

Well-Known Member
Just on the non productive (EFA) land area .It takes into account both internal and external hedgerows at a nominal width along with watercourses and field margin .
As far as I know (don't spend any money on the strength of this ) both internal and road hedges are given a nominal width of 10m whilst boundary hedges are allowed at 5m per linear meter .
Not too certain re. water courses but know again its a nominal width that's taken .Watercourse is something that has water at least 9(?) months of the year and should be marked on BPS map .

The entire country is supposed to be mapped next year .

Easy enough to work out a vague estimate using Google maps .

For example a 50ha farm with 1000m of roadside hedge ,3000m of boundary hedge and 4000m of internal hedge would have 6.5 ha of EFA or 13%
1000m x 10 =10000m2 = 1ha
3000m x 5 =15000m2 = 1.5ha
4000m x 10 = 40000m2 = 4ha

Not too sure how realistic those figures might be but know I did a rough calculation here and got a little over 10% .I have a few watercourses,a fair bit of road frontage and average field size would be c.15 acres .No waste ground or scrub and took my percentage from BPS application area .

Thats my understanding of it anyways .
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
MSS has worked well in Ireland with the last few years.

The test of MSS here will be the persistency and sward recovery after a wet year where cattle still have to get out in less than ideal conditions to graze.

I'll be avoiding it until I see it on heavy ground in a normal year or normal ground in a wet year. I have doubts that the chicory and plantain will survive those conditions and, so far anyway, over seeding has proved marginally beneficial wherever I've come across it.

You'll still have a grass/clover sward at the end of it but 3-4 years benefits under good soil conditions seems a good bit too low to be pinning our whole grassland future on, in my view?
From what I have read, one of the key things to MSS is a 30 day rotation. That won't suit the more intensive farmers in this country.

For me, the big advantage should be lower fertilizer requirement. I can do the 30 day rotations. I wouldn't mind oversowing or stitching in seed every 4 or 5 years if the fertilizer savings being quoted are accurate. I know that it comes down to having proper pH and p and k indexes, but I'm confident that I have those in line for next year.
 

Seedsower

Well-Known Member
I Ve always said that large areas with no ditches aren't good farming practice,most intensive farms including teagasc ones have only electric fences within with many hedges removed over the years.
From a purely business perspective it may have made sense but while I'm no tree hugger I do think we are custodians of the land .it's only right that those who have left trees and hedges are rewarded for it.
 

jay gatsby

Well-Known Member
Logically I can't see how mss could get anywhere near competing with prg for productivity, sure if it could we wouldn't have been using the grass swards we have for the last 40 years.

I still think they have a place but on a straight output basis I think they'll be way off. We've played around with grass varieties and clover the last few reseeds but to be honest will be focusing on persistence and in future
 

jf 850

Well-Known Member
one of the head researchers in teagasc called clover a mediterranean weed that has no place in grassland less than 10 yrs ago, as you say if its that good why has it taken them so long to cop on to it

I had a lad here one day , and we were looking at a field that I had reseeded the year before using Tipperary 4A . It was a mass of clover 🍀, and a few docks.
Yer man says to me , The best thing you could do with that field , is give it a good shot of Dock spray , and hope that it would Kill most of that stuff
 

Funkeyfarmer

Well-Known Member
one of the head researchers in teagasc called clover a mediterranean weed that has no place in grassland less than 10 yrs ago, as you say if its that good why has it taken them so long to cop on to it
Maybe because it suits the narrative teagasc I wouldn't doubt would of been "sponsored" by big business to a degree and it would help that their findings would help make their products look good. I'm trying mss and for me it might work it might not but worth a shot. Mss might be the electric car of the grazing world, grass the diesel car it's what we know tried and tested but given the cost fertiliser could be people are going to have to look to see what suits there system. There's no one option to fix all but hopefully we'll have more informed options soon
 

Bencroy

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. I'm working towards a diverse sward with clover too but I had intended that MSS would be a big part of it. It's good to have all perspectives.
You trying the mss at home or on your other farm mucky.
Man in fenagh sowed red clover for the milkers this year.not sure if they have started feeding the bales yet
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
You trying the mss at home or on your other farm mucky.
Man in fenagh sowed red clover for the milkers this year.not sure if they have started feeding the bales yet
We have sown a lot of aberace white clover at home over the last 2 years by feeding it mixed with meal in the calf creep feeder. I was planning to strip graze pasture fairly tight on the first round of grazing and spread in a mix of white and red clover, chicory and plantain on some pasture that hasn't got a lot of clover. I have toyed with growing red clover for silage for a while now in galway. This year might be the year I start but I'll definitely stitch in some mass to pasture over there.
 

ptfarmer

Well-Known Member
one of the head researchers in teagasc called clover a mediterranean weed that has no place in grassland less than 10 yrs ago, as you say if its that good why has it taken them so long to cop on to it
When you see who sits on their Board it becomes pretty obvious why. For what Its worth we have been grazing MSS type swards via sheep/beef for the past few years and seem to have less issues with worms, scour etc. and generally better thrive in young stock compared to neighbours who follow the Teagasc Bible.
 
Last edited:

Seedsower

Well-Known Member
When you see who sits on their Board it becomes pretty obvious why. For what Its worth we have been grazing MSS type swards via sheep/beef for the past few years and seem to have less issues with worms, scour etc. and generally better thrive in young stock compared to neighbours who follow the Teagasc Bible.
What varieties have u sown and how long?the key messages I have been hearing are better animal performance,as u say less worm problems and lack of persistency.in production terms,where is the comparison?
Will you have leafy regrowth regularly with no fertilizer?
 

muckymanor

Well-Known Member
Will stitching in mss work??
Maybe in an open sward,which older swards rarely are open
There's a few different online discussion groups where people have claimed that stitching in clover, plantain and chicory to existing swards has worked well. I have spoken to one person who has done it on heavy land and they are pretty happy with it.

I have a quandary. I have old pasture on fairly good ground that was never reseeded in the last 100 years. With p and k indexes correct it grows a lot of grazable grass with minimal N input. There is no way that I can afford to spray it off in order to sow MSS. All that I can do is try to tweak it by adding species to it.
 
Top