Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
not at this point in time. but think I would be at allot more financially, if the land had trees growing on it
Replace Ireland's beef herd with forestry
- Thread starter muckymanor
- Start date
not at this point in time. but think I would be at allot more financially, if the land had trees growing on it
mixed fleet
Well-Known Member
I would be in support of replacing some of the beef herd with trees. Once the delusional are removed from beef production as the years go by, a huge amount of land will naturally free up with no one willing to farm it, I can't see even the land suitable for tillage being cropped and I don't know about the future of milk production in Ireland to give an opinion but I think there are lots of rose tinted glasses dairy farmers out there.
I assume allot of land will be afforested over the next 20 years, as land values will be slashed as there just won't be anyone willing to farm it. Once land values start dropping then there will be a seismic change in how Ireland is farmed or not farmed as is my belief. Lots of guys aren't no too bothered about not making money yearly as they rely on there asset value to lead them to believe they are doing well. Once land values change and farmers will quickly see that their pants are down. Depressing. All in all I think its a very good time to sell land, unfortunately there is allot for sale around here and near a buyer for even good ground
Thats a very gloomy outlook,but i have to admit your not the first one i have heard predicting the end of farming as we know it.
I distinctly remember similar predictions at the end of the "coupled payments"era.The theory then was that there would be land abandonment except for the really good areas.
Try renting a new bit and there will be lots of lads for it.
Mostly marginal land around here with a fair bit of forestry.The forestry companies are choosy enough,the are looking for blocks of minimum 30 acres.The are paying max4k/acre
TMKF
Well-Known Member
I remember meetings in our local in the 90s about how the dairying was a dead end and how we'd all be better off selling our quota and going to beef and put an end to our hardship...bloody glad dad didnt listen then
Farming has been ending since it began. Worries over CC might be changing consumer demand (which Ireland could benefit from cos lots of people are mad for grass-fed stuff now) but actual CC will reduce land available to farm especially in warm countries like Oz or NZ
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
I can't say I agree with you on farming ending since it began. CC would change anyones demand except a few well off individual and lob in a few tree huggers aswell
And if you can point me in the direction of these people that are mad for grass fed beef please do. the majority of consumers buy on price and price alone. I for one wouldn't be overly bothered about beef being grass fed or the alternative aslong as the taste was up to scratch. Nowadays over half the beef animals being slaughtered are coming out of feedlot type systems at my local meat plant year round and I don't hear anyone complaining as the quality is of a higher spec from the cattle given a controlled diet than the traditional grass fed animal, but its a system that won't last due to economics unless the processors increase the downstream supply chain spend like they are already doing, similar to whats happening in the rest of the world, like what JBS,Cargill,Tyson's of this world are doing
which in my eyes is a sad system of meat production
nashmach
Well-Known Member
I can't say I agree with you on farming ending since it began. CC would change anyones demand except a few well off individual and lob in a few tree huggers aswell
And if you can point me in the direction of these people that are mad for grass fed beef please do. the majority of consumers buy on price and price alone. I for one wouldn't be overly bothered about beef being grass fed or the alternative aslong as the taste was up to scratch. Nowadays over half the beef animals being slaughtered are coming out of feedlot type systems at my local meat plant year round and I don't hear anyone complaining as the quality is of a higher spec from the cattle given a controlled diet than the traditional grass fed animal, but its a system that won't last due to economics unless the processors increase the downstream supply chain spend like they are already doing, similar to whats happening in the rest of the world, like what JBS,Cargill,Tyson's of this world are doing
Care to outline those latter systems in a bit more detail Ozzy?
I'm broadly familiar with the names you mention but not what they are doing.
TMKF
Well-Known Member
I can't say I agree with you on farming ending since it began. CC would change anyones demand except a few well off individual and lob in a few tree huggers aswell
And if you can point me in the direction of these people that are mad for grass fed beef please do. the majority of consumers buy on price and price alone. I for one wouldn't be overly bothered about beef being grass fed or the alternative aslong as the taste was up to scratch. Nowadays over half the beef animals being slaughtered are coming out of feedlot type systems at my local meat plant year round and I don't hear anyone complaining as the quality is of a higher spec from the cattle given a controlled diet than the traditional grass fed animal, but its a system that won't last due to economics unless the processors increase the downstream supply chain spend like they are already doing, similar to whats happening in the rest of the world, like what JBS,Cargill,Tyson's of this world are doing
CC will change demands and we need to be ahead of that game.
You might have heard that Abp had done the deal for Irish beef with a change called WholeFoods. Folks that shop there (and they're pretty popular) are mad for all thing grass fed and willing to pay.
I think there's a difference though Ozzy between 100% grass-finished & grass-fed. For instance I was on a farm beside Trim in college that finishes a serious number of cattle (you could call it a feed lot but I wouldn't) yet the place looked more like a dairy farm with paddocks and tracks. Keeps the animals out for as long as possible then only for a short period of time finish them off a TMR including grass silage. One of the biggest surprises I ever got was hearing Frank Mallon himself talking about the importance of grass measuring and how he gets an expert in regularly on it. That's Frank the owner of Liffey Meats (for the few who don't know) obsessing with using grass to grow livestock
That's distinctly different from the US system where cattle are taken off grass at 9-12m and fed a mixture of corn, cereals and some forages along with ionophores and real antibiotics in vast sweltering uncovered feedlots.
The reason you don't see demand here in Europe for grass-fed is cos people assume it's all grass-fed, and for the most part they're completely right!
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
http://www.jbsglobal.com/business/feedlots
http://www.cargill.com/company/businesses/cargill-beef/locations/
Tyson supply inputs, as in feed mills but unsure if they have feedlots themselves
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
In all fairness if you think Wholefoods are going to shift allot of beef you must he loosing it.
you mention Liffey meats and its owners, last time I saw their accounts there was one glaring amount of money sticking out regarding the cattle farm, so I would take allot of there farming practices with a grain of salt. Keepak often come out with precarious figures aswell as recently as 6 months ago in the IFJ.
Looking at my own local plant even during the summer 30% of the cattle for slaughter are coming out of feedlot type systems. You could argue that these cattle are outside for 6 months of their life. Calf born in Janurary, goes to grass in march, rehoused in october and if their unlucky that it for there outside life. With cattle getting younger and younger being presented and wanted for slaughter most cattle will be killed around 18months of age at 300 - 350kilos
TMKF
Well-Known Member
Thing about Wholefoods and others like them is not solely the amount of beef sold but also the value of that beef. However marketshare of beef is increasingly moving towards less but higher value
-Cattlesite
another
If a similar marketing strategy was deployed as we have done with Kerrygold, you'd be very surprised how much would be moved. The US An increase of 30% in demand for Kerrygold! and its was already the number one selling imported butter in the US and had 17% market share in Germany http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/record-sales-of-kerrygold-boost-irish-dairy-board-s-turnover-1.1763733
The whole grass-fed thing about Ireland is probably the biggest marketing thing driving growth.
As for Liffey or Kepak, tbf what ever else you might think they're definitely fairly clever businessmen. Also should be clear when he was talking to a bunch of dairy farmers so its not like he was pushing grass to beef farmers.
Of course on the other hand its possible that grass isnt important and all the dairy farmers in the country are being lead astray...
Yep housing beef cattle for 9 months sounds like a shit system tbh. I'd say at one point near 30% of the liquid milk pool was coming from cows housed for most of the time. The number of lads in liquid milk on that system though has plummeted cos it wasnt a profitable way to do things. Just cos thats the way some do it doesnt mean its the best way....
(To be clear though some dairy farms housed are very profitable but the % of them that are loss making is higher than outdoor low cost setups)
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
Oh it will be brilliant if, the 5% of our beef that we sell into these top markets in Ireland at a much higher price, problem is it amounts to 0.5% of our total meat output
Grass fed beef in the US now stands at 3% of the market, so it basically has gone from 2.5% to 3% in the last ten years. harley massive growth, the yanks seem to have just substituted abroad produced grass fed beef with home produced stuff, so hard to say the market has grown much.
I better not talk about my previous butter employers (they would want a serious boot where the sun don't shine they were so lax on business) :homy:, sure most of that US butter is made under license in the US for kerrygold
Kepak, liffey,dawn,abp are very good meat processors, what they get up to a farm level is market manipulation, what they get up to a farm level can be basically disregarded as their motives are far from being in our best interests
I certainly am not pushing indoor beef systems, but with lads chasing tight margins they were left with no other option in many cases, indoor beef systems will only dramatically increase to facilitate what the market requires at present. I would prefer never have to put an animal indoors winter or summer but unfortunately regulation determines how I farm in these parts sadly, pitty the same regulation dose not apply to every other region that has access to our markets
TMKF
Well-Known Member
I'm not suggesting its going to be a save all, it's not going to address many of the root and stem issues in beef production in Ireland. But whatever gains we make in that market are almost entirely because of our image as grass fed
3% of a massive market: 10,900,000 tonnes of beef infact.
To put that incontext if we export all our beef to the US it would make up less than 5% of their total. Even a 0.01% increase in grass-fed beef with Ireland supplying that would be a massive boost
I better not talk about my previous butter employers (they would want a serious boot where the sun don't shine they were so lax on business) :homy:, sure most of that US butter is made under license in the US for kerrygold
I can't say I've any complaints, seems you cant spit but you'll find one food blogger (who have way more power now than chefs in some cases), celebrities or chefs plugging our butter. Hell I've even had US dairy farmers asking why Kerrygold tastes so much better than their butter...
I hadnt heard anything about kerrygold being produced there but if its like this case in the UK where butter was packaged there and so carried the UK code...
I wasnt suggesting it was in anyones interest but their own. In fact that was my point. Even if it is market manipulation would that crowd do something that was losing them money? Or not make as much as they can? If you wanted to do market manipulation and the way to make the most was house them they'd be at that surely?
As for motives, what could it be when talking to a bunch of dairy farmers who couldnt give two shits about how to raise beef stock? When we have to deal with any of them its cos we've failed at something...all they are getting from us in that case really is bonebags
That word for word could been one of the speeches I've heard from high input dairy farmers. Yet everyday more of them switching....
As for regulations, on that we'd agree. Lots are common sense and in the longterm will protect our profitability but yea definitely some of them are irrational and driven by fear mongering or anti-livestock interests at EU level.
muckymanor
Well-Known Member
Slowly but surely the worm is starting to turn in our little county with people starting to realise that we are being pawned off to meet the country's forestry targets. Meetings are being organised to make ordinary people aware of what's really going on. Politicians are being lobbied. There's talk about bylaws, objections to forestry applications that don't have proper road access or that will impact on roads by the council, and just more awareness about what's happening.
Let's hope it puts the brakes on it for a while. Nobody has a problem with a farmer planting his land but when companies are coming in and buying land to plant then it's time for locals to become more aware of their rights.
Let's hope it puts the brakes on it for a while. Nobody has a problem with a farmer planting his land but when companies are coming in and buying land to plant then it's time for locals to become more aware of their rights.
muckymanor
Well-Known Member
Saw this written today. I think it says a lot about us and Europe as a whole:
Its a funny aul world when...the EU threaten Ireland with carbon footprint fines....while seeking to open trade deals (cars for beef) with countries like brazil...that have between August 2015 and July 2017 cut down 14,517 SQUARE KILOMETRES of rainforest for agriculture use
Its a funny aul world when...the EU threaten Ireland with carbon footprint fines....while seeking to open trade deals (cars for beef) with countries like brazil...that have between August 2015 and July 2017 cut down 14,517 SQUARE KILOMETRES of rainforest for agriculture use
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
its very accurate
muckymanor
Well-Known Member
I don't know how anyone can say that this type of sika spruce monoculture forestry is beneficial to the environment. When you leave a landscape like this, release the carbon that was stored in the soil by slopping it up like this, when you consider the amount of green diesel burned, to plant, harvest, make sh1t of the land and haul the timber for processing. Surely that previous farmer that worked this land and kept a suckler cow to every 2 acres, kept the grass trimmed and the hedgerows in great order, was far more benefit to the environment than the trees that grew here. If land has to go through a continuous cycle of this forestry then it's nothing better than Chernobyl. At least they can decontaminate their land!
muckymanor
Well-Known Member
And look at what happens when the wind blows. There's hundreds of acres of what was forestry within a 1 mile radius of our house and in places, over 80% of it is wind blown.
JohnBoy
Well-Known Member
The only major environmental issue with that is the sitka monoculture.
the warzone is probably the most ecologically diverse it's been for 30 years. and for the next 5, maybe 10 it will be too. but once the spruce join up, and cover the ground in their needles the biodiversity does tend to slow a hell of a lot.
Turning the soil once every 40 years isnt a bad return carbon wise given all that was drawn out on the back of a truck. trimming grass and cutting hedges might look pretty but it's not amazingly diverse either. it doesnt create monocultures but it sure does reward a much smaller list
But the problem with all of this is the policy. It shouldnt be trees or cattle, just like it shouldnt be spruce or nothing. we should have a mixed and balanced approach.
the warzone is probably the most ecologically diverse it's been for 30 years. and for the next 5, maybe 10 it will be too. but once the spruce join up, and cover the ground in their needles the biodiversity does tend to slow a hell of a lot.
Turning the soil once every 40 years isnt a bad return carbon wise given all that was drawn out on the back of a truck. trimming grass and cutting hedges might look pretty but it's not amazingly diverse either. it doesnt create monocultures but it sure does reward a much smaller list
But the problem with all of this is the policy. It shouldnt be trees or cattle, just like it shouldnt be spruce or nothing. we should have a mixed and balanced approach.
TheDarkLordChinChin
Member
I live in Roscommon, near the Leitrim border. If I look out any window in My house I can see more sitka trees than grass blades.
I like trees and I like forests. And I think logging is a good industry when done right. But it's not done right in Ireland.
Over the last couple of years i have planted a lot of native broadleaves on my land. I intend to cut them for firewood in years to come.
I like trees and I like forests. And I think logging is a good industry when done right. But it's not done right in Ireland.
Over the last couple of years i have planted a lot of native broadleaves on my land. I intend to cut them for firewood in years to come.
Forestry land to hit €7,000/ac predict estate agents
Higher forestry premiums will drive prices for planting-type land, but the restricted availability of ground could still curtail afforestation levels.
if this does happen to materialise there will be alot more ground mounded which could make an attractive offer for those wishing to get out of farming or has nobody to take on the reins
the downfall to that is neighbours trying to expand there land base where there is a guaranteed base under it and while some land for forestry can be farmed with some tlc given the likely base price rise it would leave it economically unvieable to purchase for farming in certain areas, which is understandable, its a long time ago that a dairy man from @jd-baz area said to my father that if it needs a drainage shore its only fit for a bush, in theory he was probably right,
Didn't know what thread to post this in so lumped it here, move as required mods.
Local man that I'd be reasonably friendly with inherited some land from his recently deceased mother lately, took a few years to sort out probate for a number of reasons, circa 30 acres I think in mature sitka spruce forestry. Ready to be cut as such. In fairness to him, he went ahead and got felling license sorted quickly and wired into it, put in a road etc for access for the timber machinery. All cut in the last few weeks, couldn't tell you what he got for the timber as i didnt even ask but he was reasonably happy if you were to believe him which I'm not sure I do to be honest. He's now in the position where there is an onus on him to replant trees in it again even though he has no grants to get on it going forward after doing so. So basically if he replants as they would like him to, then he has no income to get from the land for the rest of his lifetime from what I can see, he's 50. It won't be ready to cut I'd guess while he's around unless he lives to be an old man. Is he as well off to sell the land this minute to a forestry company? He'll probably get as much for it now as it will yield in timber whenever it is cut again I'd guess, and he won't have to wait the bones of 30 years for it either. For clarity, the man has no family and would be relatively comfortable financially without being wealthy if that makes sense.
Local man that I'd be reasonably friendly with inherited some land from his recently deceased mother lately, took a few years to sort out probate for a number of reasons, circa 30 acres I think in mature sitka spruce forestry. Ready to be cut as such. In fairness to him, he went ahead and got felling license sorted quickly and wired into it, put in a road etc for access for the timber machinery. All cut in the last few weeks, couldn't tell you what he got for the timber as i didnt even ask but he was reasonably happy if you were to believe him which I'm not sure I do to be honest. He's now in the position where there is an onus on him to replant trees in it again even though he has no grants to get on it going forward after doing so. So basically if he replants as they would like him to, then he has no income to get from the land for the rest of his lifetime from what I can see, he's 50. It won't be ready to cut I'd guess while he's around unless he lives to be an old man. Is he as well off to sell the land this minute to a forestry company? He'll probably get as much for it now as it will yield in timber whenever it is cut again I'd guess, and he won't have to wait the bones of 30 years for it either. For clarity, the man has no family and would be relatively comfortable financially without being wealthy if that makes sense.
muckymanor
Well-Known Member
With no grants to replant it and no annual subsidy will there be a forestry company to buy it? I don't know, I'm just asking.
He would have gotten a fairly good price to sell the land with the timber standing on it. I can't see the land sale value being big. At 50, it might make a good tax free pension investment for him to replant it. Then in 20 years time he could sell it where it may be more valuable. Any investor will be including the cost of sale, cost of replanting and a good healthy margin into the purchase price.
Personally I think his best bet is try sell it to some crowd like Intel etc who might want to buy land for carbon credits going forward. Forestry without grants is not a viable proposition in my book
jf 850
Well-Known Member
What sort of money would it cost to replant an acre of forestry? Paying out for all aspects , not doing anything yourself .
Ozzy Scott
Well-Known Member
He is just after reaping what someone else sowed and will have a fair bit of coin, replant it and it’s his second pension, sell in 15 to 20 yrs if he needs to cash out. Who knows, he may have offspring already, or by then 😄
