Calf rearing- First timer

[bruceythom]

We have moved to using the stomach tube on almost 100% of calves with great effect. Believe me when I say that nature knows best, but nature is also cruel.
The critical thing is that the calf gets squeaky clean, high quality colostrum within the first 2 hours of its life. 10% of their body weight might not be 4 litres on most modern dairy farms, unless you put a calf on a scales then you don't know. A lot of our calves are born at 25kgs.
Feeding the cow decent minerals and silage during the dry period is very important, the cows intake drops in the last 2 weeks pre calving so she will be in negative energy balance and trying to produce colostrum. Some additional energy for the last week or two prior to calving will be a huge help to calving, the calf and the cow post calving.
Equipment must be squeaky clean, if you're not willing to drink out of it yourself, then it's not clean.
There is a book to be written on calf rearing post partum, but if starting out I'd advocate whole milk, it's not much more expensive when all factors are taken in (heating, grammes protein/litre, feeding levels/head) but make sure equipment is big enough, a few wheelie bins are cheap and handy for moving milk, make sure the equipment is big enough and kept clean, clean enough that you'd drink out of it yourself and make sure that it's big enough and then keep it clean.
You don't need to complicate it either, we have just sold a computerized feeder and back to all teats. 👍

 

[muckymanor]

Nobody giving a high energy calf tube? Every calf here gets one within minutes of calving (it's ingredients are coconut oil, egg white, minerals etc). 9 out of 10 calves are up and sucking within 20 minutes. We have seen a serious reduction in calf scours since starting to use the tubes.

 

[Tipp19]

We tube all calves within minutes usually. We give 3 to 4 litres depending on size. Calf might not be hungry for 12 hrs , others will look for more within a couple of hrs , they don't get tubed a second time . All friesian. We've being doing things this way for years, 250 to 280 each year . I'd be the opposite of some on here as I'm not keen on seeing a calf trying to suck because they'll get all the dirt off the cows belly, legs etc. Two out of the last 3 years we lost no calves to sickness, so I'm happy to tube

 

[nashmach]

We tube all calves within minutes usually. We give 3 to 4 litres depending on size. Calf might not be hungry for 12 hrs , others will look for more within a couple of hrs , they don't get tubed a second time . All friesian. We've being doing things this way for years, 250 to 280 each year . I'd be the opposite of some on here as I'm not keen on seeing a calf trying to suck because they'll get all the dirt off the cows belly, legs etc. Two out of the last 3 years we lost no calves to sickness, so I'm happy to tube

That's an impressive statistic with those numbers fair play.

 

[ranger]

6 key aspects of calf accommodation

In this article, Trevor Alcorn, CAFRE dairying development adviser based in Omagh, asks if your calf accommodation is fit for purpose.

thatsfarming.com

 

[Tipp19]

That's an impressive statistic with those numbers fair play.

We have help , no continentals and I don't have to milk but it's still tough going for Feb, March . Rotavec and halocur makes a huge difference also

 

[Bot.exe]

Does anyone have a link for good freezer bags for colostrum?

 

[redpower]

Weighed some BBx heifers today. Their average is 333 days old (almost 11 months) with an average weight of 240kg and DLWG of 0.6kg/day (assumed birth weight of 40kg). Best was doing 0.73kg/day, worst was 0.41kg/day. Taking the worst 2 out (worm dose in summer nearly done for them) looking at 0.73kg/day to 0.58kg/day. Spread was 180kg to 280kg.
Getting ad lib silage and approx 1.5kg 16% blend daily.

Were only dosed today since housing - mainly due to awful weather and PT working.

Will be getting the silage analysed soon as it puts out water when the bottom of bale is opened. What weights and gains should BBx heifers be hitting at almost 11 months old?

 

[downtown125]

Weighed some BBx heifers today. Their average is 333 days old (almost 11 months) with an average weight of 240kg and DLWG of 0.6kg/day (assumed birth weight of 40kg). Best was doing 0.73kg/day, worst was 0.41kg/day. Taking the worst 2 out (worm dose in summer nearly done for them) looking at 0.73kg/day to 0.58kg/day. Spread was 180kg to 280kg.
Getting ad lib silage and approx 1.5kg 16% blend daily.

Were only dosed today since housing - mainly due to awful weather and PT working.

Will be getting the silage analysed soon as it puts out water when the bottom of bale is opened. What weights and gains should BBx heifers be hitting at almost 11 months old?

They’re a touch behind where they should be really. They should be 280kg really imo but they are where they are. The 16% sticks out to me as being wrong. Should be 18% + for young cattle even if you drop it to 1kg per day. Dosing should help them now. What’s the plan for them? Are you finishing yourself or selling as stores or bulling?

Not being smart but would testing the silage make any difference? Unless you have a couple of heaps of bales to take from and can target better silage at these heifers the test won’t change what silage you have. God only knows how valuable that silage is this year anyway. Remember dry silage does not always equal good silage.

 

[Bot.exe]

They’re a touch behind where they should be really. They should be 280kg really imo but they are where they are. The 16% sticks out to me as being wrong. Should be 18% + for young cattle even if you drop it to 1kg per day. Dosing should help them now. What’s the plan for them? Are you finishing yourself or selling as stores or bulling?

Not being smart but would testing the silage make any difference? Unless you have a couple of heaps of bales to take from and can target better silage at these heifers the test won’t change what silage you have. God only knows how valuable that silage is this year anyway. Remember dry silage does not always equal good silage.

Difficult to understand why you would suggest not testing silage.

It's a big help in changing methods to make better silage in the future not to mind how useful it is for deciding how much meal to feed

 

[redpower]

They’re a touch behind where they should be really. They should be 280kg really imo but they are where they are. The 16% sticks out to me as being wrong. Should be 18% + for young cattle even if you drop it to 1kg per day. Dosing should help them now. What’s the plan for them? Are you finishing yourself or selling as stores or bulling?

Not being smart but would testing the silage make any difference? Unless you have a couple of heaps of bales to take from and can target better silage at these heifers the test won’t change what silage you have. God only knows how valuable that silage is this year anyway. Remember dry silage does not always equal good silage.

It's only small money to test it. It would then rule in/out the fodder. I'm of the opinion that the grass is left standing too long and goes to seed. Alongside bad weather at silage time last year (even with the good weather) I think the DMD of the silage might be a bit low. The only way to know for certain is to get it tested.
We've never tested silage so it would be good it know what we are making and whether we need to sort anything.

Plan for them is to go as stores. Nothing in the batch of interest to keep for bulling and no room to keep them to finish. I think keeping them for a period at grass first to clean them up after wintering and to see if they get a second wind may be the approach to take.
Thinking to take in a different type of calf next year to rear. BBx heifers are plentiful but the last two years they have been disappointing to look at. Previous to that, they done okay.

Considering getting young bull calves instead. Weighing up breeds and whether to get them on or off milk. Thoughts?

 

[redpower]

Difficult to understand why you would suggest not testing silage.

It's a big help in changing methods to make better silage in the future not to mind how useful it is for deciding how much meal to feed

Yes, I agree. I had read this recently and thought i should check it out:

High quality silage: a must for beef production systems

This bit stood out:

Feeding the higher quality (75% versus 65% DMD) silage at farm level would result in approximately 40 kg extra live weight gain over a 150-day housing period, or 2.0 to 2.5 kg reduction in daily concentrate intake for similar daily gain. In fact, it took less than half the amount of silage DM to achieve 1 kg carcass gain with the better quality sward.

 

[Seedsower]

I weighed bull selves in late December,April born,bought late June as rags taken off milk a bit early.weighed 300kg which I was very happy with but getting meal since arrival which would be against my religion usually but they were behind and needed it
Also getting near three kg in shed which is double what I usually give but have other stock getting the same mix who suffered a set back in November and needed a boost,also my amount of meal in to the feeder working out higher than intended as the feeder load is doing between 1 and two days so harder to figure out exactly what's being fed than just doing a daily load.have reduced a bit now

 

[redpower]

@Seedsower what breed were they?

That is my concern about buying calves off milk. They can be taken off it too soon and the effects of that can knock them back for a very long time before they recover.

 

[Seedsower]

Hereford and Angus mostly

 

[downtown125]

Difficult to understand why you would suggest not testing silage.

It's a big help in changing methods to make better silage in the future not to mind how useful it is for deciding how much meal to feed

I don’t think anyone ever got higher DMD silage by cutting it later. Silage has a very simple principle. Cut the grass as young as possible in the best weather possible with the highest sugars.

Fair enough if you’re doing it out of curiosity but that’s all you’re doing. It’ll do nothing for the cattle.

My advice to you is to be ready to cut on the 15th of May and talk to your contractor that you want to cut early. They may want to get you out of the way before the rush. Fertilise accordingly by the 2 units a day rule depending on close off date. There’s no secret to cutting good silage. Do not fall into the trap of letting it “bulk up” if you want good silage. If you want to fill the out that’s fine but don’t expect cattle to thrive. I always think that most farmers would throw their eyes to heaven if someone left cattle into a field that is over fit for cutting but there’sa certain minority would think a good farmer is rated by how many bales per acre they get.

Not trying to be harsh but testing silage is grand if you’re balancing a diet. You’re feeding young cattle and it’s protein you need more than anything which is gotten by young, high energy grades. The thing with silage testing is if you’ve very low protein fair enough it’ll tell you that but any protein over 13% is just excess nitrogen (unless you’ve red clover afaik and even then the results aren’t necessarily fantastic)

My point is test it if you want to test it but there’ll be no new revelations from it. There’s no half measures with silage. You cut as early as young as you can to optimise. I don’t see what anyone will learn from testing sub optimal silage when it’s not cut at the right time. You may have done everything by the book and cut early etc. and then you may learn something but other than that forget about it imo.

Test the silage if you want to test it haha

 

[Seedsower]

We make all bales in recent years from new enough swards using our own equipment.
We cut light around 5/acre frequently and 7/8 be the heaviest.
The silage doesn't test as well as pit silage used to for us but feeds better for liveweight gain.
I have given up in testing, when you are making bales frequently it's not practical really compared to a pit.

 

[downtown125]

It's only small money to test it. It would then rule in/out the fodder. I'm of the opinion that the grass is left standing too long and goes to seed. Alongside bad weather at silage time last year (even with the good weather) I think the DMD of the silage might be a bit low. The only way to know for certain is to get it tested.
We've never tested silage so it would be good it know what we are making and whether we need to sort anything.

Plan for them is to go as stores. Nothing in the batch of interest to keep for bulling and no room to keep them to finish. I think keeping them for a period at grass first to clean them up after wintering and to see if they get a second wind may be the approach to take.
Thinking to take in a different type of calf next year to rear. BBx heifers are plentiful but the last two years they have been disappointing to look at. Previous to that, they done okay.

Considering getting young bull calves instead. Weighing up breeds and whether to get them on

It's only small money to test it. It would then rule in/out the fodder. I'm of the opinion that the grass is left standing too long and goes to seed. Alongside bad weather at silage time last year (even with the good weather) I think the DMD of the silage might be a bit low. The only way to know for certain is to get it tested.
We've never tested silage so it would be good it know what we are making and whether we need to sort anything.

Plan for them is to go as stores. Nothing in the batch of interest to keep for bulling and no room to keep them to finish. I think keeping them for a period at grass first to clean them up after wintering and to see if they get a second wind may be the approach to take.
Thinking to take in a different type of calf next year to rear. BBx heifers are plentiful but the last two years they have been disappointing to look at. Previous to that, they done okay.

Considering getting young bull calves instead. Weighing up breeds and whether to get them on or off milk. Thoughts?

Everyone has their own opinion on breed. We like Angus here as we’re rearing our own and it gives the best of all (almost) worlds. Best price per kilo, easy calving, short gestation, polled. But that’s a matter of trial and error and imo there’s no perfect breed as there are so many other variables.

My unique point that I think not many will make is to buy in July when they’ve their awkward period put over them. You can see then what is a good animal and what is a bad animal. The market isn’t usually too hot around then as the flush is gone. €400 would buy you a good calf that time of year. It would last year anyway.

Another silly point I’ll probably make is try and find a farmer that doesn’t breed replacements. They are more likely to have a good beef bull as they see the importance of having good calves. The farmer who is using dairy semen as well is more likely to say sure that they want everything to calf like a Friesian ( a very strong generalisation I know) whereas the farmer with a flying herd will see the importance in having good calves to sell

 

[Bot.exe]

I don’t think anyone ever got higher DMD silage by cutting it later. Silage has a very simple principle. Cut the grass as young as possible in the best weather possible with the highest sugars.

Fair enough if you’re doing it out of curiosity but that’s all you’re doing. It’ll do nothing for the cattle.

My advice to you is to be ready to cut on the 15th of May and talk to your contractor that you want to cut early. They may want to get you out of the way before the rush. Fertilise accordingly by the 2 units a day rule depending on close off date. There’s no secret to cutting good silage. Do not fall into the trap of letting it “bulk up” if you want good silage. If you want to fill the out that’s fine but don’t expect cattle to thrive. I always think that most farmers would throw their eyes to heaven if someone left cattle into a field that is over fit for cutting but there’sa certain minority would think a good farmer is rated by how many bales per acre they get.

Not trying to be harsh but testing silage is grand if you’re balancing a diet. You’re feeding young cattle and it’s protein you need more than anything which is gotten by young, high energy grades. The thing with silage testing is if you’ve very low protein fair enough it’ll tell you that but any protein over 13% is just excess nitrogen (unless you’ve red clover afaik and even then the results aren’t necessarily fantastic)

My point is test it if you want to test it but there’ll be no new revelations from it. There’s no half measures with silage. You cut as early as young as you can to optimise. I don’t see what anyone will learn from testing sub optimal silage when it’s not cut at the right time. You may have done everything by the book and cut early etc. and then you may learn something but other than that forget about it imo.

Test the silage if you want to test it haha

You know what to do and that makes testing redundant to you. Is it possible that not everyone has the right methods for making silage? It's a very narrow view that you have on this for some reason.

A test is incredibly important if you're changing methods and need to figure out what to change and what the effect of the change is.

It's important to me too because I feed a lot of meal and I make sure to test everything. You might be surprised with the variation over the course of a summer.

 

[downtown125]

You know what to do and that makes testing redundant to you. Is it possible that not everyone has the right methods for making silage? It's a very narrow view that you have on this for some reason.

A test is incredibly important if you're changing methods and need to figure out what to change and what the effect of the change is.

It's important to me too because I feed a lot of meal and I make sure to test everything. You might be surprised with the variation over the course of a summer.

The poster asked about his cattle. The process of making silage is well documented. I’ve went into fairly strong detail on my thoughts on that. What’s practical on farm at silage cutting time is dictated by contractors, the weather etc. Once the silage is in the yard there’s sod all you can do about it. What are your new found methods that may change things?
Cutting early- well documented.
Cutting as dry as possible with a 24-36 hour wilt - we’ll documented
Cutting in the evening when sugars are highest- we’ll documented.
Making sure the fertiliser hasn’t run out with too long- we’ll documented
What am I missing?
Edit: This is not in the slightest way belittling the original poster’s query but my point is that silage making isn’t an art. It’s fair straightforward what you need to do and something certain things aren’t possible or practical

 

[Bot.exe]

The poster asked about his cattle. The process of making silage is well documented. I’ve went into fairly strong detail on my thoughts on that. What’s practical on farm at silage cutting time is dictated by contractors, the weather etc. Once the silage is in the yard there’s sod all you can do about it. What are your new found methods that may change things?
Cutting early- well documented.
Cutting as dry as possible with a 24-36 hour wilt - we’ll documented
Cutting in the evening when sugars are highest- we’ll documented.
Making sure the fertiliser hasn’t run out with too long- we’ll documented
What am I missing?
Edit: This is not in the slightest way belittling the original poster’s query but my point is that silage making isn’t an art. It’s fair straightforward what you need to do and something certain things aren’t possible or practical

It's such a bizarre stance. You're assuming an awful lot and only looking at it from your own perspective.

There is a lot more bad silage made around the country than good stuff, why would that be if everyone knows how to make good silage? How would someone learn if they didn't have a farming qualification or had to deal with a boss who is reluctant to change?

In this case testing the silage would still have an immediate benefit to guage how much meal to feed to get performance in line with expectation.

Not everyone has a defined system and it's arrogant to assume so imv

 

[Seedsower]

I have heard various educated people doubt the veracity of silage test results over the years.they are a good guideline especially if there is something unusual like high ph or unusual smells or bad preservation.
In general what goes in comes out though,it's not rocket science

 

[Bot.exe]

I have heard various educated people doubt the veracity of silage test results over the years.they are a good guideline especially if there is something unusual like high ph or unusual smells or bad preservation.
In general what goes in comes out though,it's not rocket science

That's definitely true. The ultimate test is a weighing scales and your own eye/the bulk tank but a silage test provides useful information too.

As a rule of thumb, the test is progressively less reliable below a certain level of moisture.

 

[downtown125]

It's such a bizarre stance. You're assuming an awful lot and only looking at it from your own perspective.

There is a lot more bad silage made around the country than good stuff, why would that be if everyone knows how to make good silage? How would someone learn if they didn't have a farming qualification or had to deal with a boss who is reluctant to change?

In this case testing the silage would still have an immediate benefit to guage how much meal to feed to get performance in line with expectation.

Not everyone has a defined system and it's arrogant to assume so imv

You’re getting awfully defensive of silage testing. You still haven’t refuted my point that there’s no rocket science to cutting silage. The effect of cutting date is well documented full stop. You will trip over the likes of these articles in May if you’re on social media/read a farming newspaper

Silage harvesting: Aim for quality over quantity
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/silage-harvesting-aim-for-quality-over-quantity/

Anyone that doesn’t believe that cutting silage earlier will give better quality silage will not believe the results of a silage test. What are the methods? I’m not saying not to test your silage. It’s purely curiosity though. We do all bales and do 6+ batches anyway. All different stages of growth. All different weather conditions. A lot of them in one pile. Try to stay with the basic principles whenever we are cutting and hope for the best. What’s the point in testing it when one bales is different from the next.

I think our wires are crossing here though. When we’re growing young cattle our greatest limiting factor is protein. Therefore when we feed meal our objective is to grow frame and then fatten at grass. Silage is low in protein so we know that any meal inputted is to make up for this shortfall.

I’m coming around to your way of thinking but i think you think you’re reinventing the wheel with your silage cutting methods. Research something else which is less documented if you’re really inquisitive

 

[Bot.exe]

You’re getting awfully defensive of silage testing. You still haven’t refuted my point that there’s no rocket science to cutting silage. The effect of cutting date is well documented full stop. You will trip over the likes of these articles in May if you’re on social media/read a farming newspaper

Silage harvesting: Aim for quality over quantity
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/silage-harvesting-aim-for-quality-over-quantity/

Anyone that doesn’t believe that cutting silage earlier will give better quality silage will not believe the results of a silage test. What are the methods? I’m not saying not to test your silage. It’s purely curiosity though. We do all bales and do 6+ batches anyway. All different stages of growth. All different weather conditions. A lot of them in one pile. Try to stay with the basic principles whenever we are cutting and hope for the best. What’s the point in testing it when one bales is different from the next.

I think our wires are crossing here though. When we’re growing young cattle our greatest limiting factor is protein. Therefore when we feed meal our objective is to grow frame and then fatten at grass. Silage is low in protein so we know that any meal inputted is to make up for this shortfall.

I’m coming around to your way of thinking but i think you think you’re reinventing the wheel with your silage cutting methods. Research something else which is less documented if you’re really inquisitive

I never once said I did anything different with making silage. Cut young with conditioner and spreading vanes, one ted, rake and bale near 24-30hrs. It wasn't always like that though.

I said you can use a test to inform yourself where things are going wrong, it's what was done here to change things from picking tens of sometimes wet grass mowed on the second week of June because that's what was always done. A test result removes the ambiguity