Friesan bull calves?

[TMKF]

It's common practice in NZ and it doesn't look good from the consumer's point if view, but at the end if the day, faced with two products on the supermarket shelf, will Jersey bull calves affect their buying decision? I'd doubt it.

No, it won't. But remember the average citizen in Ireland has a control over farming that NZ hasnt. Their taxes are paid to us.

I'd suggest anyone who thinks that this issue will be isolated to solely herds using JE once it gets out to go and look at some of the smear campaigns against dairying from likes of PETA, HSUS and Compassion in World Farming on Youtube in US and UK.
Anyone who thinks likes of ARAN, who hate us with a disturbed passion just for milking cows, wouldnt do exactly the same are kidding themselves

The simple facts of the matter are that dairy bred bull calves will be killed at birth if the current mess with the factories and dairy bulls doesn't change. It comes down to simple economics, a bullet is cheaper then feeding milk.

You're spot on there diesel. That was where I would have expected intervention from farm bodies
Obviously I wasnt expecting IFA to set up little shelters for JE or skinny FR calves

 

[Tim818]

You're spot on there diesel. That was where I would have expected intervention from farm bodies
Obviously I wasnt expecting IFA to set up little shelters for JE or skinny FR calves

What would your suggestion, or anyone elses suggestion for that matter? Its clear from this thread that the dairyfarmers don't want to go this route, and we'll accept a small financial loss to avoid it, but at the end of the day the bull calves are a necessary byproduct. The beef lads simple as is wont buy them (or take them for free/at a fee) unless they can make money. Where does the gap get bridged? Throwing up possible options here that I've thought up myself:

The beef farmer could be given an incentive to rear them (headage payment?)
A boat could be brought in again and ship them all out.
The dairyfarm could be given an incentive to hold onto them until say 3/4months, at which time a beef man could consider buying them at a small cost.
Promote the widespread us of sexed seman for dairy replacements, which eliminates the problem. Possible reduction in conception rates for dairyfarms an issue here, alongside the greater volume of seman required for each straw.

The final one would be the best runner in my view, but as things stand its far from proven.

 

[TMKF]

What would your suggestion, or anyone elses suggestion for that matter? Its clear from this thread that the dairyfarmers don't want to go this route, and we'll accept a small financial loss to avoid it, but at the end of the day the bull calves are a necessary byproduct. The beef lads simple as is wont buy them (or take them for free/at a fee) unless they can make money. Where does the gap get bridged? Throwing up possible options here that I've thought up myself:

There seemed to be no real issue in taking calves last year, either poor FR or JE at a low price. This years low prices are being a direct result of factory action and needs highlighting. Fundamentally though this is an issue beef farmers have been dealing with finally coming round to bite us too. Really it's all being driven by low slaughter price right now whereas it was artificially inflated last year

The beef farmer could be given an incentive to rear them (headage payment?)

Headage is banned under WTO, more research needs to be done to show whether these calves can turn a small profit and educate beef farmers for this. Not just bury our heads in the sand

A boat could be brought in again and ship them all out.

No one to take them anymore than here, cost of shipping would be too much. I'm gonna go talk to some other European farmers though (particularly those where Jerseys are common) and see if there are other solutions (veal here may be an option but it's long term and needs a developing a markets)

The dairyfarm could be given an incentive to hold onto them until say 3/4months, at which time a beef man could consider buying them at a small cost.

Those that could would, for many it's not an option

Promote the widespread us of sexed semen for dairy replacements, which eliminates the problem. Possible reduction in conception rates for dairyfarms an issue here, alongside the greater volume of semen required for each straw.

The final one would be the best runner in my view, but as things stand its far from proven.

Longterm this will reduce the problem enough that it may solve the issue. Reducing fr bulls coming onstream would also make less desirable breed more useful. All the Jersey semen I'm using this year will be sexed (but of course the issue with this is jerseys are generally used on low conception rate cows exasperating the problems of sexed reduced CR)

While we are talking longterm though, I'd add another solution. Solve the problem pre-calving by promotion of some of the other breeds which would give advantages here. I despair of the attitude of some in believing there are only 2 dairy breeds out there or that JE straws will be a magic bullet to issues with the cow

 

[Tim818]

Reducing fr bulls coming onstream would also make less desirable breed more useful. All the Jersey semen I'm using this year will be sexed (but of course the issue with this is jerseys are generally used on low conception rate cows exasperating the problems of sexed reduced CR)

I gave JEx a serious consideration this year, and the highlighted issue above was the main reason that stopped me from pulling the trigger! My herd fertility subindex isnt too bad now, and I thankfully have a pool of about 20cows with very good survivability and never need more than 2straws, these ladies I will use the sexed straws on, and wouldn't consider crossing anyways.

 

[TMKF]

I gave JEx a serious consideration this year, and the highlighted issue above was the main reason that stopped me from pulling the trigger! My herd fertility subindex isnt too bad now, and I thankfully have a pool of about 20cows with very good survivability and never need more than 2straws, these ladies I will use the sexed straws on, and wouldn't consider crossing anyways.

Using JE on high fertility cows is a waste (unless that animal has a MS% problem)
There are 3 families of cows in my herd who will never see anything but a high EBI HO straw
Low fertility cows though are divided into 3 groups
a) Low fert with immune issues: cows with ave. SCC +250 or 1st lactation mastitis get high fertility NR or SR (e.g. EKE)
b) Low fert with metabolic issues: cows unable to maintain or regain BCS easily normally high yeild or due to their bull being "high type" get high EBI Montbelliard (also included are the one or two with weak teat end) (e.g. S1376)
c) Low fertility with low MS%: cows with high yield but low %s will get a high MS NR unless they fit into group B (e.g. TUY, TVK)
Any with all 3 issues get either the chop or one chance with AA straw regardless of liquid yield
The higher yielding MOxFR get JE (e.g. DJD, DJS), the lower yielding MO get high yield NR (e.g. VLX)

 

[Tim818]

Going off further topic here (again!), but out of interest TK, why bred at all from the low fertility ladies? My dad did operate a fairly loose spring system, so naturally our better cows calf in the spring every year. We have between 20-25% replacement rate, so for me to maintain the herd I need to get in around the 20heifers coming through the system every year. The LM bull by us was used to cleanup on any of the late calving cows who tend to be the ones with low fertility. Now that I'm using sexed I'd hope I can be alot more selective again, I'll be aiming for more than 20heifers, so as I can grow the herd over the next few years, but I'm not going to let my culling policy change at all if I can, and will avoid breeding from infertile cows if at all possible, esp if they are outside of the feb/march window.

We do have afew specific issues in the herd itself however, short teat length has definitely become a problem, with the cow leaking and having higher SCC. I might consider that Monty above for them, at the second I'm trying to select a high EBI HO with as positive teat length as possible for these cows.

 

[bruceythom]

Is there an argument for a Co-op modelled beef factory? Is it possible? Time to take these cowboys head on, it's no secret that meat processing is a lucrative business in this country.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

 

[Mf240]

Not a hope of taking them on they have it sowed up. Only hope is the boat.

 

[TMKF]

Going off further topic here (again!), but out of interest TK, why bred at all from the low fertility ladies? My dad did operate a fairly loose spring system, so naturally our better cows calf in the spring every year. We have between 20-25% replacement rate, so for me to maintain the herd I need to get in around the 20heifers coming through the system every year. The LM bull by us was used to cleanup on any of the late calving cows who tend to be the ones with low fertility. Now that I'm using sexed I'd hope I can be alot more selective again, I'll be aiming for more than 20heifers, so as I can grow the herd over the next few years, but I'm not going to let my culling policy change at all if I can, and will avoid breeding from infertile cows if at all possible, esp if they are outside of the feb/march window.

When I say low fertility I mean lower. Anything not incalf this year in december will be gone (all going to plan). Lower would be cows that require 2+ attempts
Why breed from lower fertility at all? Simple, no cow was ever born who didnt have some useful traits, it's just a matter of how to limit their negative traits.
As I said anything that falls into 2 catagories is bred to beef if bred (classed as milkers non-breeders), 3 and it's a cull.
A lower fertility cow has that issue, but she may have high MS kgs, longevity, good SCC, good milking speed or high immunity. I fit the bull to need rather than my own personal ideology to make a balanced cow (mind you I weigh SCC and longevity more than most)
Breed for a single trait was what caused the flaw in every breeds, in holsteins it was yield with no consideration for fertility. In NZ it was fertility with little consideration for longevity or yield. In NR low SCC which ended with slow milkers (I could list them all but who cares)
Now the best holstein breeders are producing fertile moderate to high yield, NZ is importing holstein genetics to add to the mix, NR is selecting for yield and speed with minimum standards for fertility which bulls cannot go below.

We do have afew specific issues in the herd itself however, short teat length has definitely become a problem, with the cow leaking and having higher SCC. I might consider that Monty above for them, at the second I'm trying to select a high EBI HO with as positive teat length as possible for these cows.

I would definitely pick MO over HO for that issue, not enough recording of leakage in their breeding countries. In MOs it it a carry over trait from the past but the other option is to select a NR with high TMI for leakage on their system

Is there an argument for a Co-op modelled beef factory? Is it possible? Time to take these cowboys head on, it's no secret that meat processing is a lucrative business in this country.

Yes. Everytime I've asked this question of beef farmers, their answer is invariably "it was tried before" my pointing out that 90% of the milk coops of the past are gone now, some went bust too, is ignored

 

[whelan1]

sent my br/fr bull to the factory during the week, bull price is shi*e, he went straight from the cows as he was being a bit bold, got cheque today 344kg o2 2euro/kg 689.52 my dad reckoned he would make 1200

 

[bruceythom]

Had 2 vasectomised friesan bulls here that didn't see meal until November. Both just over the two years of age mark. Sent them Tuesday to the factory. Was talking to my agent last night, one made 1030, the other made 1070. Happy enough.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

 

[humungus]

I did it last night. It's not something that'll look good for our industry. It's common practice in NZ and it doesn't look good from the consumer's point if view, but at the end if the day, faced with two products on the supermarket shelf, will Jersey bull calves affect their buying decision? I'd doubt it.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

good man brucey, i think that if we are aiming for the higher end of the market with our butter ,cheese and consumer products it wiil affect those consumer decisions, anyone for clubbed seal steaks or whale burgers?

 

[sheep farmer]

Wicklow cattle company run a good service and doing the beef industry a great service getting the fr out of the country, they call once a week to a friend of mine and take the calves suitable for shipping or for sale in the country and pay and he wastes no time in the mart, as he says out of the pen and up in the lorry and good riddance.
I was in a farm before Xmas and he had 40 jex and fr weanlings he purchased weaned from a dairy herd and not one of them worth taking if he gave,
The jex male is worth nothing and what is required is a distruction scheme to take them out of the system, let the dairies pay for it if they want all this higher solid milk produced let them pay for the down side of it.

 

[Mf240]

I see Wicklow have 12 friesan calves 3 weeks old for 60 euros each, they don't look terrible either. Would they be worth less than that for the boat?

 

[Arthur]

Nobody would produce these HOX and JX calves only for they see more profit in the bulk tank but in spite of that they are trying to single them out as loss makers only worth a bullet in the head, as for linking all this to SFP the reason beef men dont want them is the same reason dairy men want them, farming for profit not just for the sake of farming.

 

[bruceythom]

Nobody would produce these HOX and JX calves only for they see more profit in the bulk tank but in spite of that they are trying to single them out as loss makers only worth a bullet in the head, as for linking all this to SFP the reason beef men dont want them is the same reason dairy men want them, farming for profit not just for the sake of farming.

Ah it's not all that simple Spanner. There's no Friesan breed immune to this problem this spring. Even Dutch Friesans are going to be tough to sell on the teat this year. It's costing approx €2.50 a day in variable costs alone to keep a calf on my farm this year. If I had the facilities to keep them, I would, as I see there is money to made out of them, not huge money admittedly, but as my €70/80 bull calves from 2 years ago are now stores tipping on 2 yrs of age and weighing 490-580kgs (weighed them yesterday) with 600kgs of meal this winter I'll be expecting approx €400 with their weight in the mart.

I have a very small SFP here so everything has to be scrutinised as to whether or not it's making me money, I have no soft landing and no room for hobby farming. If I had the facilities I'd be keeping my friesan bulls this spring. I'm not solely blaming the SFP for this, but it's of no help to the situation that we find the beef industry today with declining stock numbers.

The main culprits here are the factories, dropping the price of bulls at the point where they'd know they'd be tipping them over the two years of age. The price will creep back up over the next 6 weeks I'd imagine, but the harm done in the meantime will be long felt.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

 

[TMKF]

the reason beef men dont want them is the same reason dairy men want them

The reason the dairy men dont want them is because it's our job to produce milk not meat. Otherwise we wouldnt sell our AAx, HEx or BBx who return higher profit at the end of the year either

 

[Arthur]

Ah it's not all that simple Spanner. There's no Friesan breed immune to this problem this spring. Even Dutch Friesans are going to be tough to sell on the teat this year. It's costing approx €2.50 a day in variable costs alone to keep a calf on my farm this year. If I had the facilities to keep them, I would, as I see there is money to made out of them, not huge money admittedly, but as my €70/80 bull calves from 2 years ago are now stores tipping on 2 yrs of age and weighing 490-580kgs (weighed them yesterday) with 600kgs of meal this winter I'll be expecting approx €400 with their weight in the mart.

I have a very small SFP here so everything has to be scrutinised as to whether or not it's making me money, I have no soft landing and no room for hobby farming. If I had the facilities I'd be keeping my friesan bulls this spring. I'm not solely blaming the SFP for this, but it's of no help to the situation that we find the beef industry today with declining stock numbers.

The main culprits here are the factories, dropping the price of bulls at the point where they'd know they'd be tipping them over the two years of age. The price will creep back up over the next 6 weeks I'd imagine, but the harm done in the meantime will be long felt.

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

I'd agree that the factories have most to answer for but (and I could get slated for this) if they paid more store prices and calf prices would continue to rise and it would just mean more money tied up for beef men to take the same or less profit going forward.

The reason the dairy men dont want them is because it's our job to produce milk not meat. Otherwise we wouldnt sell our AAx, HEx or BBx who return higher profit at the end of the year either

the point was more relevant to JEX and HOX as they are the breeds used to produce replacement dairy stock for the purpose of improving returns.

 

[TMKF]

.
the point was more relevant to JEX and HOX as they are the breeds used to produce replacement dairy stock for the purpose of improving returns.

Your point was clearly that we don't want to keep JEx or HOx bull calves because they're not profitable. Most of us don't want to keep any non heifers regardless of whether one type is more profitable than the other

 

[bruceythom]

If I was offered a batch of Belgian Blue Bull calves for free I would have to decline as I just don't have the resources. The beef industry has to up its game IMO, and I think Teagasc have let it slip. It's a rare sight to see a beef farm strip grazing which is one of the foundation tools we've used in efficient milk production, I strip graze the cattle I have here and it works famous with them. I do think that there is an element "couldn't been seen with them friesans" at the ring side which could be why don't we see more AA in our fields either.
We need to put pressure on the IFA to open up live export markets to get away from the mafia-esque factories in this country. And we need to invest in strip tape and pig tail steaks. ;)

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

 

[TMKF]

If I was offered a batch of Belgian Blue Bull calves for free I would have to decline as I just don't have the resources. The beef industry has to up its game IMO, and I think Teagasc have let it slip. It's a rare sight to see a beef farm strip grazing which is one of the foundation tools we've used in efficient milk production, I strip graze the cattle I have here and it works famous with them

I know some beef farmers at it but they're few and far between, slow movement in that direction!

I do think that there is an element "couldn't been seen with them friesans" at the ring side which could be why don't we see more AA in our fields either.

I think that's it Brucey, dont want to be seen buying middling or poor looking calves (the snobby attitude has even appeared in this thread a few times) and definitely dont want to be seen selling them regardless of whether they can make money on them

 

[diesel power]

If I was offered a batch of Belgian Blue Bull calves for free I would have to decline as I just don't have the resources. The beef industry has to up its game IMO, and I think Teagasc have let it slip. It's a rare sight to see a beef farm strip grazing which is one of the foundation tools we've used in efficient milk production, I strip graze the cattle I have here and it works famous with them. I do think that there is an element "couldn't been seen with them friesans" at the ring side which could be why don't we see more AA in our fields either.
We need to put pressure on the IFA to open up live export markets to get away from the mafia-esque factories in this country. And we need to invest in strip tape and pig tail steaks. ;)

Posted from the Ham Bone using Crapatalk 2

Tried out a bit of strip grazing here years ago with the bullocks and tbh it was a disaster. Feckers used to give all their time walking up and down along by the tape and had tracks bet into the field. I find with bullocks that they thrive best on an open field and most important of all is to change them at least every fortnight regardless of grass cover left. Keeps them content and. I do agree with you on the snobbish attitude of some towards the Fr's. I probably have a touch of it myself if I'm honest but I will buy a FR bullock if I like the look of him. Biggest trouble with a lot of them is to much holstein in them.

I know some beef farmers at it but they're few and far between, slow movement in that direction!


I think that's it Brucey, dont want to be seen buying middling or poor looking calves (the snobby attitude has even appeared in this thread a few times) and definitely dont want to be seen selling them regardless of whether they can make money on them

 

[TMKF]

Tried out a bit of strip grazing here years ago with the bullocks and tbh it was a disaster. Feckers used to give all their time walking up and down along by the tape and had tracks bet into the field. I find with bullocks that they thrive best on an open field and most important of all is to change them at least every fortnight regardless of grass cover left. Keeps them content and. I do agree with you on the snobbish attitude of some towards the Fr's. I probably have a touch of it myself if I'm honest but I will buy a FR bullock if I like the look of him. Biggest trouble with a lot of them is to much holstein in them.

You'd need to go talk to William Treacy in Dundalk. I saw full limo bulls being strip grazed, but he said himself it had to be tailored to suit. The bulls couldnt be let graze out too low or they'd fight so he'd graze down then let cows and calves or weanlings out to graze down tight (an odd sort of reverse-leader follower system)

The only way I could see any other grazing being comparable was small paddock system. Bullocks let in an acre or two for a day then to the next.
Do you measure grass Diesel?

 

[diesel power]

You'd need to go talk to William Treacy in Dundalk. I saw full limo bulls being strip grazed, but he said himself it had to be tailored to suit. The bulls couldnt be let graze out too low or they'd fight so he'd graze down then let cows and calves or weanlings out to graze down tight (an odd sort of reverse-leader follower system)

The only way I could see any other grazing being comparable was small paddock system. Bullocks let in an acre or two for a day then to the next.
Do you measure grass Diesel?

Probably going to sound stupid now but no, I never measure grass TMKF. I just know how many cattle the farm can graze every year and I just go on what I see grass height wise I suppose you'd call it when I decide what field to graze next. Average field size here would be 10 acres which to me at least is a grand size for grazing.

 

[TMKF]

Probably going to sound stupid now but no, I never measure grass TMKF. I just know how many cattle the farm can graze every year and I just go on what I see grass height wise I suppose you'd call it when I decide what field to graze next. Average field size here would be 10 acres which to me at least is a grand size for grazing.

Why stupid? Most beef/sheep farmers and a good few of dairy farmers, against all the advice, still dont
I'd say though grass measuring even if you're not strip grazing is incredibly useful to identify the fields that are in need of reseeding or not responding as well as others following fertiliser