How to make farm viable

Could set up the farm to handle relatively large number of store lambs,or ewe lamb to hoggot enterprise

A reasonable handling unit,and reasonable dog set you back 3.5 grand in set up costs (excluding stock)....a few rolls of poly wire and plastic stakes another 1000 approx


Across 250 lambs starting off,should in theory leave enough profit to cover start up costs,have a constant flow of lambs in/out when you have a good system set up and going...and faster return than cattle.....plant rape & turnips amd strip graze,if you insist upon wanting machinery work



perhaps bale top end bales across land for summer

A lad i know,grazes stubbles,and uses a diet feeder to fill half a dozen green hoppers twice a week with a course mix......you might even come to enjoy working at sheep🤣
 
Tekscrew said:
Did he take over a well run and setup farm at home? The generation wealth is probably a lot more of a reason than his own doings to his financial position?
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Good roadways and paddocks set up from his fathers time. Hes done a nice few improvements to the yard, bits now and again over the last 30 years like install cubicles, put in feed passages, silage pits, slatted tank. Mainly adapted existing buildings. Didnt do all in one go, but something done every couple years.

Lifestyle could have a factor in it. He and the wife wouldnt be for keeping up with the Jones. They dont buy flashy things, dont go on foreign holidays every year. Neither drink or smoke but will go out for meals , bring the kids for days out. She has a sister and she has been abroad 3 times this year as well as trips away here. Shes out for coffee etc just about every day and she is always moaning about the cost of things and a struggle to make ends meet.
 
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Uptown125 said:
What enterprise are ye in at home and whereabouts are you located? What is the set up? Some people just think because they’re not getting return out of something no one can. I will say any holding less than 60 acres or on poor ground it’s hard to make a proper return cause fixed costs can kill it.
Land as an inflation hedge is good but not that over hectic either. It’s the farming of the land that makes the real money in the good years. And land rented out as a satellite block for Billy big balls down the road ain’t being improved unless rent is very low
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Look I entered this forum probably 20 years ago no green naive and enthusiastic about farming, well I personally don't farm anymore, I didn't make a damn thing out of it. Yes on paper it looks good, hell even beef looks good, but by the time you pay for your labour, which family labour often subsidises, and the debt, which is often totally ignore in those topline figure thrown around in the paper, there is little to nothing left in a good year.
Hell I actually know why they don't count it as paying debt is asset gain sonits not a loss or cost in an accounting situation only the interest etc is.
Sort of like how houses aren't counted on inflation indexes.
 
@Jimbob30 have you considered milk recording?
Ring Munster AI and see if they need a someone in any area nearby.
You could start by relief recording and go on that way.

it’s your own choice as to days you go recording and could suit you very well.

2 large bonus points from this job,
You’ll have a network of farmers to talk to and vent with, on a regular basis.
You’ll have that same group to possibly buy calves/cattle from for your own enterprise.

You’re not going out working for farmers directly and waiting on money or anything, and you still are very well bedded in the atmosphere with weekends and middle of day for yourself.

If you can get over the managing of grass and that, it’s a great addition to the dry cattle setup.
 
Be interesting to see, myself and the brother but really myself, reared a few calves this year that can't be wintered. I have most of costs accounted for it should be interesting to see, at the moment there won't be a whole pile out of them unless things improve drastically...
 
eddie86 said:
How are you calculating that? Or is it a guide to go off.
I expect different farms will have different costs.
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Ballpark costs really based on what I was doing when I was conventional.

Rough numbers here.

Give yourself 1hr per day at €25/hr. For 50 cattle. 50c per head per day in labour.

Labour for 250 day summer = €6250.

TB test €12.50 + dosing €12.50 per is another €1250

3t fertilizer €2000, spreading €250, topping €250.

1kg meal a day x 50cattle x 120 days ~6tons at €330 a ton is €2000

Total cost ex land and insurance etc is €12000.

That works out at €48 per day or for 50 cattle or 96c per head per day.
 
Since I went organic the equation has changed a bit but you'll run far less cattle. Say 30 head.

Labour €25 per hr for 1hr per day is still €6250.

No fert, no meal. No dosing

Topping €250,

herd test €12.50 x 30 =€375

Total €7125

Divided by 250 days = €28.50/day. Divided by 30 cattle

95c/head per day excluding insurance land costs etc.
 
callwaster said:
Since I went organic the equation has changed a bit but you'll run far less cattle. Say 30 head.

Labour €25 per hr for 1hr per day is still €6250.

No fert, no meal. No dosing

Topping €250,

herd test €12.50 x 30 =€375

Total €7125

Divided by 250 days = €28.50/day. Divided by 30 cattle

95c/head per day excluding insurance land costs etc.
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So am I thinking that the cost per head is the same between both farming methods but the number of cattle (turnover) is greater in conventional?
Of course margin is what it’s all about, is the total margin for the farm (excluding organic grant) better or worse in one system compared to the other?
I’d imagine that the organic grant puts a much different complexion on the figures.
 
Crops said:
So am I thinking that the cost per head is the same between both farming methods but the number of cattle (turnover) is greater in conventional?
Of course margin is what it’s all about, is the total margin for the farm (excluding organic grant) better or worse in one system compared to the other?
I’d imagine that the organic grant puts a much different complexion on the figures.
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Running some numbers, I'm trying to be realistic with the prices but it could easily be won or lost with a good or bad day out at the mart or if you got a bad outbreak of a disease etc.

Suppose conventionaly you buy yearling bullocks at €3.50/kg in the springtime and they're 300kg = €1050 x 50 head = €52,500. You sell them in the fall of the year at 420kg at €3.50/kg = €1470 x =€73,500.

Gross profit = €21000
Costs = €12000
Total profit = €9000


Now instead buy your organic animals at the same weights. 300kg x €4.75/kg x 30 head = €42750. Sell in the autumn at 420kg x €4.75x 30 head = €59,850

Gross margin = €17,100
Costs = €7125
Nett profit = €9975.

There's really nothing extra out of the cattle.

Organic grant on 14Ha = €4400. (€250/Ha x14 and €1400 participation grant)

Organic certification costs €500.
1 day self labor for inspection and paperwork = € 200

Nett gain from organic grant €3800.

Total organic profit €13775.


A big difference I think is the % return on invested money

Conventional €9000/€58250 = 15%

Organic €13775/€43000 = 32%
 
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As a caveat to above, it would be an ideal world to hope for such steady prices and let to us get on with our farming, but cattle prices have been very volatile.

In the real world it's just as easy to loose as win. After my labour I made an average of €429 from AAX heifers bought 2024 and killed summer 25. A bumper year, nothing to do with me, just prices rocketing.

I bought 3 heifers last September in Kilmallock, they didn't put a foot out of line, grubbed up well, didn't get sick or lame and put on weight and fattened nicely off grass. I lost €125 a head for my year of trouble when I took them to the factory last week.
 
callwaster said:
As a caveat to above, it would be an ideal world to hope for such steady prices and let to us get on with our farming, but cattle prices have been very volatile.

In the real world it's just as easy to loose as win. After my labour I made an average of €429 from AAX heifers bought 2024 and killed summer 25. A bumper year, nothing to do with me, just prices rocketing.

I bought 3 heifers last September in Kilmallock, they didn't put a foot out of line, grubbed up well, didn't get sick or lame and put on weight and fattened nicely off grass. I lost €125 a head for my year of trouble when I took them to the factory last week.
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Excellent explanation, thank you. I can’t imagine there are too many people that do the sums in such detail.
 
mixed fleet said:
I think that the average dairy herd is 90 odd cows , that looks pretty accurate.
Average of course.
But then some people don't trust any figures coming from teagasc or the journal.
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Whats confusing at the minute re the good operators, the profits they where banking where at the expense of having a good bank of feed in the yard that all of us on wet farms take as a cost of doing business and its always make 6-7 months of winter feed...
If I had to only make 4 months winter forage I'd be saving myself 35-40k a year, on a 150 cow herd and followers, but the funny thing I'd rather have 4 months of feed in the yard starting the new year then the good operators this year that will be hunting the country for silage/hay
 
jay said:
Whats confusing at the minute re the good operators, the profits they where banking where at the expense of having a good bank of feed in the yard that all of us on wet farms take as a cost of doing business and its always make 6-7 months of winter feed...
If I had to only make 4 months winter forage I'd be saving myself 35-40k a year, on a 150 cow herd and followers, but the funny thing I'd rather have 4 months of feed in the yard starting the new year then the good operators this year that will be hunting the country for silage/hay
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I was talking to a relative of one of the biggest herds in this area and he said that he is feeding a pit of silage that was made five years ago and knowing the man it would not be a small pit . In 2018 he told me that you want two years silage coming into every winter . He will be worried heading into this winter with only one year’s silage ahead of him .
 
jay said:
Whats confusing at the minute re the good operators, the profits they where banking where at the expense of having a good bank of feed in the yard that all of us on wet farms take as a cost of doing business and its always make 6-7 months of winter feed...
If I had to only make 4 months winter forage I'd be saving myself 35-40k a year, on a 150 cow herd and followers, but the funny thing I'd rather have 4 months of feed in the yard starting the new year then the good operators this year that will be hunting the country for silage/hay
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You’ve nailed it in one there in fairness.
People on about the cost of production constantly at the moment imply that feed costs are the only costs that are there at this time of year.
What annoys me currently is there’s lads in our area giving out about nitrates limits and they’re buying forage in the way of silage and maize on the stem wholesale. It’s too dear to rent ground apparently but they still want to moan about nitrates limits. Very few are actually farming at any level, just they don’t have maps for the ground that their feed is coming from.
 
callwaster said:
Running some numbers, I'm trying to be realistic with the prices but it could easily be won or lost with a good or bad day out at the mart or if you got a bad outbreak of a disease etc.

Suppose conventionaly you buy yearling bullocks at €3.50/kg in the springtime and they're 300kg = €1050 x 50 head = €52,500. You sell them in the fall of the year at 420kg at €3.50/kg = €1470 x =€73,500.

Gross profit = €21000
Costs = €12000
Total profit = €9000


Now instead buy your organic animals at the same weights. 300kg x €4.75/kg x 30 head = €42750. Sell in the autumn at 420kg x €4.75x 30 head = €59,850

Gross margin = €17,100
Costs = €7125
Nett profit = €9975.

There's really nothing extra out of the cattle.

Organic grant on 14Ha = €4400. (€250/Ha x14 and €1400 participation grant)

Organic certification costs €500.
1 day self labor for inspection and paperwork = € 200

Nett gain from organic grant €3800.

Total organic profit €13775.


A big difference I think is the % return on invested money

Conventional €9000/€58250 = 15%

Organic €13775/€43000 = 32%
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Yes very good figures and thanks for making it out so clearly !

Say buying yearling bullocks in the spring and keeping them for one winter and selling the following spring what is the cost per day for winter €1.50 ?
 
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