Organic farming

Given what is currently served in some hospitals, how the food is grown doesn’t make one jot of difference.

I had a hospital stay, and all the food is cooked offsite the previous day. The supplier has had closure order enforced by the FSA last year, but somehow manages to retain the government contract 🤦

The public services are very vulnerable to bad governance. It works grand when you have a good boss with the power to do something. Unfortunately a bad apple can make it impossible for everyone, including other staff and there seems to be no way to get rid of them.

On the other hand I've had a complementary report of the food in CUMH recently from my lovely wife.
 
This reminds me,

What is it with every guy under 50 wearing beards nowadays? It looks a bit ridiculous, a bit of an overdone trend.
I was in the service station place by Manorstone a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting having a (non-organic) chicken burger and chips and observing. I’d estimate that 90% of the men had some bit of a beard on them, I was almost expecting a few women and babies with beards to show up. I know it’s not just a Laois thing.

I'm over 50 , from Laois , have a beard for 35 yrs...

But I get what you are saying .

It's not as annoying as those big plastic rings , with 20 mm holes in people's ears .

Or those wire rings in young people's snouts .

Or tattoo's.
 
On Glyphosate, it is one of the safest chemicals I use in farming.
Here is a challenge to anyone who believes Glyphosate is dangerous.
I will sit down with you at a table, with neat Glyphosate spray in front of me and table salt in front of you. If you wish we can ingest our poisons till you die.
Or
I will sit down with you at a table, with dilute Glyphosate, at the standard strength sprayed on most farms, in front of me, and Sea water in front of you, and again, if you wish, we can drink till you die.
If I sat down to drink wine and you dilute glyphosate, I'd still probably die before you do due to alcohol poisoning even though we regard wine as reasonably safe.

The concern I and others seem to have is the long term effects.

I enjoy a drink but I'm still conscious of the long term effects of too much of it. I'd regard it as safe in reasonable quantities and know where to draw the line. I'm also sure most farms use Glyphosate as Intended, but there's are cowboys out there too.
 
This reminds me,

What is it with every guy under 50 wearing beards nowadays? It looks a bit ridiculous, a bit of an overdone trend.
I was in the service station place by Manorstone a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting having a (non-organic) chicken burger and chips and observing. I’d estimate that 90% of the men had some bit of a beard on them, I was almost expecting a few women and babies with beards to show up. I know it’s not just a Laois thing.
I wear a beard because it suits me and my wife prefers it, simple as. Defintitely a trend in it though for the last few years.

It's one area that I could definitely recommend a bit of niter for some lads, those wisps will never amount to much over the weigh bridge otherwise.

It's almost as bad as those people in beamers and mercs, almost.
 
This reminds me,

What is it with every guy under 50 wearing beards nowadays? It looks a bit ridiculous, a bit of an overdone trend.
I was in the service station place by Manorstone a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting having a (non-organic) chicken burger and chips and observing. I’d estimate that 90% of the men had some bit of a beard on them, I was almost expecting a few women and babies with beards to show up. I know it’s not just a Laois thing.
Screenshot_20230928-210916_Chrome.jpg
 
I wear a beard because it suits me and my wife prefers it, simple as. Defintitely a trend in it though for the last few years.

It's one area that I could definitely recommend a bit of niter for some lads, those wisps will never amount to much over the weigh bridge otherwise.

It's almost as bad as those people in beamers and mercs, almost.
My beard must qualify as organic, seems to grow at the same rate whatever the season so not dependent on a bit of bagged stuff or slurry, getting 20 plus crops a year.
 
This reminds me,

What is it with every guy under 50 wearing beards nowadays? It looks a bit ridiculous, a bit of an overdone trend.
I was in the service station place by Manorstone a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting having a (non-organic) chicken burger and chips and observing. I’d estimate that 90% of the men had some bit of a beard on them, I was almost expecting a few women and babies with beards to show up. I know it’s not just a Laois thing.
I fit into that category but have done for 15 years nearly now. Thankfully though it was never a bum fluff job always came through fairly good. Was being asked by the mother lately was I shaving it for an occasion and I said hell no the missus has never seen me without a beard so why now 😂

On the organic v conventional from a food point of view how much chemicals are actually being applied to vegetables, tillage crops get probably an average of say 3 sprays plus fert, spuds are probably one of the higher spray counts with regular passes for blight. But what do the rest really get?
Organically you can spray potatoes for blight with certain chems, bluestone(copper sulphate) was the traditional one but there is one or 2 products available now too which are based around that. Can also use liquid seaweed and liquid boron also available.

The big thing is though the green movement pushing organic from a food point of view is quite stupid when they are on about carbon release from tillage through ploughing etc. the most common form of weed suppression in organic veg farming is based entirely around the principle of turning over clay to disturb weeds, and swamping clay around the plants you want in an effort to smother out small weeds between them, so your looking at a plough based system as easiest to get a good suppression of weeds to start with, a decent amount of tilling to get fine for planting then probably 2-3 passes of soil disturbance after planting.

A “small” sprayer is 12m in a tillage situation now but when your talking weed control in organic veg your looking at a pass potentially every 72” as for the most part lads would be working individual beds, to me that adds up to a good bit of tractor time and all related to it from emissions point of view
 
I wear a beard because it suits me and my wife prefers it, simple as. Defintitely a trend in it though for the last few years.

It's one area that I could definitely recommend a bit of niter for some lads, those wisps will never amount to much over the weigh bridge otherwise.

It's almost as bad as those people in beamers and mercs, almost.

Perhaps that's why Crops doesn't like the hipster look, he needs a good shot of urea to get the fluff to grow. Or perhaps its some CCC to help it tiller.... :wink:
 
Perhaps that's why Crops doesn't like the hipster look, he needs a good shot of urea to get the fluff to grow. Or perhaps its some CCC to help it tiller.... :wink:
A good friend of mine struggles in this area, he wouldn't know a lot about farming but said he could do with a shot of npk to get it going :laugh:
 
A meat factory owner that is dead a few years had a contract for supplying the prison service with meat . He rang up the local Knacker yard and asked had he any animals that would be suitable to fill the contract .
the owner of the local knackery bought a nursing home locally a few years ago he has since closed it and turned to housing refugees in it :rolleyes:
 
Its a good policy I think, badly sold. The Greens are terrible at PR.

As they're subsidising farmers at the supply side of the food chain, it makes sense to use the governments food buying power to boulster demand at the other end.
An actual example of rounded thinking, unlike lots of stuff like grants for lime, first time buyers, cattle scales etc, which just drive the prices up.

The last of my conventional cattle are going the factory at the moment and they're not making me rich.
Ireland competing with conventional food, from all over the world, produced to lower standards, at lower costs is economic madness.

Better to move to higher value production IMO. Swiss are very good at this, they make Rolex's not Casios. We do make high margin items like Kerrygold and baby formula but the bottom shelf in every Tesco in Britain is still packed with bargain Irish Beef mince and Irish cheddar.

We've been trying to get wealthy by producing more and more low cost food from the same landbase.

After a while you run out of straightforward efficiencies and the rest of your increase has to come from somewhere. Some unforgivable examples of animal welfare. Poor water quality. Every bird spider and bush eradicated to make way for more mono-crops. High greenhouse emissions. Blindly importing animal feed and fertiliser, much of which has negative environmental effects overseas. Farmer stress and burnout, and hugely reduced relative farm incomes.
Cheap farm produce was fine when Ireland was a cheap country. It's not so much craic when a pint is €5.50.

Organic farming tackles every one of these items in one blow.

Irish conventionally produced food isn't the problem, its excellent.

How the land, the animals and farmers are treated in making it, is the problem.
 
I’m not aware of a single study that shows proven health benefits of organic food?

My area of interest goes beyond conventional agriculture (whatever that is as it’s always evolving). What I’m really interested in is science and efficiency in agriculture - organic goes against both scientific and efficiency logic as I see it. If organic actually convinced me of its real benefits then I’d happily spend my money on it, but it doesn’t.
The nutrient value of everything from carrots to spinach has declined significantly since the adoption of intensive farming practices after WW2. That is a fact




"Scientists say that the root of the problem lies in modern agricultural processes that increase crop yields but disturb soil health. These include irrigation, fertilisation, and harvesting methods that also disrupt essential interactions between plants and soil fungi, which reduces absorption of nutrients from the soil."


Obviously going back to majority organic would not be wise thing to do overnight - but neither is it sustainable to keep upping chemical inputs like the ubiquitous use of Roundup, Chemical N etc. that are know disrupters of essential soil biology. The power of companies like Bayer and Monsanto is a cause of concern in this space given their lobbying power in Brussels via Big Agri Business who have little concern for the average farmer or consumer in thier race for ever bigger corporate profits. Thats why the latters domination of the GMO space is off such concern as it has resulted in even heavier chemical inputs in countries that have gone down that route
 
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The nutrient value of everything from carrots to spinach has declined significantly since the adoption of intensive farming practices after WW2. That is a fact




"Scientists say that the root of the problem lies in modern agricultural processes that increase crop yields but disturb soil health. These include irrigation, fertilisation, and harvesting methods that also disrupt essential interactions between plants and soil fungi, which reduces absorption of nutrients from the soil."


Obviously going back to majority organic would not be wise thing to do overnight - but neither is it sustainable to keep upping chemical inputs like the ubiquitous use of Roundup, Chemical N etc. that are know disrupters of essential soil biology. The power of companies like Bayer and Monsanto is a cause of concern in this space given their lobbying power in Brussels via Big Agri Business who have little concern for the average farmer or consumer in thier race for ever bigger corporate profits. Thats why the latters domination of the GMO space is off such concern as it has resulted in even heavier chemical inputs in countries that have gone down that route
I think there’s a good share of truth in what you’re saying.

Increased yields are more than likely diluting nutrient content in some cases, protein content in malting barley or milling wheat would be a prime example.
As for soil fungi being disturbed and that leading to reduced nutrient content, perhaps but I couldn’t say, it’s probably minor enough.

Corporates are interested primarily in one thing - profit, no doubt about that regardless of what they say.

From an individual farmers profit point of view, organic can be good, especially on less productive land. I have an in law going into it. The land in question would be very marginal and he has a young family to educate and I think he’s definitely doing the right thing for him, I’d do it too.

I do think however that science is the solution to future food production, not stepping back into organic as a means of producing a significant proportion of the world’s food.
If these scientific advances mean less agrochemicals all the better.

The current gene editing discussions would be a case in point. This is the kind of technology that is needed and it doesn’t have to be solely in the hands of the corporates.
From what I know from reading and speaking to breeders, GE isn’t a silver bullet but it is certainly a way of needing less chemicals for disease and pest control, it can improve nutrient content and potentially improve nitrogen use efficiency.
Yet, the organic lobby in Europe are against this technology; go figure…..(could it be perhaps that if conventional food can be produced with less synthetic chemicals, consumers might not bother with organic…?)
 
Its a good policy I think, badly sold. The Greens are terrible at PR.

As they're subsidising farmers at the supply side of the food chain, it makes sense to use the governments food buying power to boulster demand at the other end.
An actual example of rounded thinking, unlike lots of stuff like grants for lime, first time buyers, cattle scales etc, which just drive the prices up.

The last of my conventional cattle are going the factory at the moment and they're not making me rich.
Ireland competing with conventional food, from all over the world, produced to lower standards, at lower costs is economic madness.

Better to move to higher value production IMO. Swiss are very good at this, they make Rolex's not Casios. We do make high margin items like Kerrygold and baby formula but the bottom shelf in every Tesco in Britain is still packed with bargain Irish Beef mince and Irish cheddar.

We've been trying to get wealthy by producing more and more low cost food from the same landbase.

After a while you run out of straightforward efficiencies and the rest of your increase has to come from somewhere. Some unforgivable examples of animal welfare. Poor water quality. Every bird spider and bush eradicated to make way for more mono-crops. High greenhouse emissions. Blindly importing animal feed and fertiliser, much of which has negative environmental effects overseas. Farmer stress and burnout, and hugely reduced relative farm incomes.
Cheap farm produce was fine when Ireland was a cheap country. It's not so much craic when a pint is €5.50.

Organic farming tackles every one of these items in one blow.

Irish conventionally produced food isn't the problem, its excellent.

How the land, the animals and farmers are treated in making it, is the problem.
Who is going to buy the organic produce?
 
Who is going to buy the organic produce?
Fair question. €55 billion of organic sold in Europe this year.

Annoyingly customers don't now much about what the label means and assume it is the same as "green" or "eco" both of which are greenwashing b*llshit.

Stuff like high animal welfare and fairer farmer prices are just not known about.
 
Mentioned on here previously that I entered the organic scheme this spring.
In my opinion organics is a middle class aspiration that feels good,sounds good and gives you that warm inner glow of the self righteous.
From a " feed the populace" viewpoint its a non runner.From a global warming perspective I have no idea as its not something that interests me nor crosses my mind on a daily basis.

From our ( farmers) point of view it should be a business decision.Its just another option,system etc.
When I started farming ( still think I am a young lad but from reading between the lines here would be farming longer than most) it was a mixed farm.
I had few suckled cows,bought 40/50 dairy bred calves to bucket rear each spring,flock of ewes,grew hay for sale,grew sugar and fodder beet along with spring barley,even tried peas and winter oats the odd year.
Over the years different things were dropped ,suckler cows due to cost,calf rearing then increased but dropped as reluctant to invest big money in slats.Sugar beet went but kept at fodder beet for a number of years.Tillage area got smaller and economy of scale meant it was go all out or drop it.Wouldnt have enough land in my opinion to make all tillage sustainable so decided to ramp up sheep numbers.

All the above just goes to show how places can change over the years.
I admit I played the system (decent BISS here due to almost 4 figure ewe numbers from reference period added to slaughter premiums and final reference year had decent amount put into grass with arable silage mix which was payable in area aid.

I am looking at organics as just another type of farming.Yes you are farming the " system" but the bottom line is that if the farm must return a profit.I have absolutely no interest in farming for the sake of farming nor any real interest in it apart from making a living.
Too many people, some of my friends included,seem to be afraid to try something different.
Over the years have taken some serious chances and borrowed serious money.Some paid off,some were an exercise in making work and a few were unmitigated disasters.

Perhaps the above is only tangentially related to organics but its the thinking behind my decision to " go green".Its purely an economic decision.Yes I would likely manage as is but the money on offer for the scheme slong with all the added extras make it something I had to consider.

Organics as a farming system is not an economic model I could see working but if those in charge of agricultural policy are hell bent on throwing away money then my account number and sort code are readily available.
 
Mentioned on here previously that I entered the organic scheme this spring.
In my opinion organics is a middle class aspiration that feels good,sounds good and gives you that warm inner glow of the self righteous.
From a " feed the populace" viewpoint its a non runner.From a global warming perspective I have no idea as its not something that interests me nor crosses my mind on a daily basis.

From our ( farmers) point of view it should be a business decision.Its just another option,system etc.
When I started farming ( still think I am a young lad but from reading between the lines here would be farming longer than most) it was a mixed farm.
I had few suckled cows,bought 40/50 dairy bred calves to bucket rear each spring,flock of ewes,grew hay for sale,grew sugar and fodder beet along with spring barley,even tried peas and winter oats the odd year.
Over the years different things were dropped ,suckler cows due to cost,calf rearing then increased but dropped as reluctant to invest big money in slats.Sugar beet went but kept at fodder beet for a number of years.Tillage area got smaller and economy of scale meant it was go all out or drop it.Wouldnt have enough land in my opinion to make all tillage sustainable so decided to ramp up sheep numbers.

All the above just goes to show how places can change over the years.
I admit I played the system (decent BISS here due to almost 4 figure ewe numbers from reference period added to slaughter premiums and final reference year had decent amount put into grass with arable silage mix which was payable in area aid.

I am looking at organics as just another type of farming.Yes you are farming the " system" but the bottom line is that if the farm must return a profit.I have absolutely no interest in farming for the sake of farming nor any real interest in it apart from making a living.
Too many people, some of my friends included,seem to be afraid to try something different.
Over the years have taken some serious chances and borrowed serious money.Some paid off,some were an exercise in making work and a few were unmitigated disasters.

Perhaps the above is only tangentially related to organics but its the thinking behind my decision to " go green".Its purely an economic decision.Yes I would likely manage as is but the money on offer for the scheme slong with all the added extras make it something I had to consider.

Organics as a farming system is not an economic model I could see working but if those in charge of agricultural policy are hell bent on throwing away money then my account number and sort code are readily available.
Excellent post imo.What suits one farmer may not suit the next, but each to their own.
 
Mentioned on here previously that I entered the organic scheme this spring.
In my opinion organics is a middle class aspiration that feels good,sounds good and gives you that warm inner glow of the self righteous.
From a " feed the populace" viewpoint its a non runner.From a global warming perspective I have no idea as its not something that interests me nor crosses my mind on a daily basis.

From our ( farmers) point of view it should be a business decision.Its just another option,system etc.
When I started farming ( still think I am a young lad but from reading between the lines here would be farming longer than most) it was a mixed farm.
I had few suckled cows,bought 40/50 dairy bred calves to bucket rear each spring,flock of ewes,grew hay for sale,grew sugar and fodder beet along with spring barley,even tried peas and winter oats the odd year.
Over the years different things were dropped ,suckler cows due to cost,calf rearing then increased but dropped as reluctant to invest big money in slats.Sugar beet went but kept at fodder beet for a number of years.Tillage area got smaller and economy of scale meant it was go all out or drop it.Wouldnt have enough land in my opinion to make all tillage sustainable so decided to ramp up sheep numbers.

All the above just goes to show how places can change over the years.
I admit I played the system (decent BISS here due to almost 4 figure ewe numbers from reference period added to slaughter premiums and final reference year had decent amount put into grass with arable silage mix which was payable in area aid.

I am looking at organics as just another type of farming.Yes you are farming the " system" but the bottom line is that if the farm must return a profit.I have absolutely no interest in farming for the sake of farming nor any real interest in it apart from making a living.
Too many people, some of my friends included,seem to be afraid to try something different.
Over the years have taken some serious chances and borrowed serious money.Some paid off,some were an exercise in making work and a few were unmitigated disasters.

Perhaps the above is only tangentially related to organics but its the thinking behind my decision to " go green".Its purely an economic decision.Yes I would likely manage as is but the money on offer for the scheme slong with all the added extras make it something I had to consider.

Organics as a farming system is not an economic model I could see working but if those in charge of agricultural policy are hell bent on throwing away money then my account number and sort code are readily available.
Most conventional farming requires market supports these days, hence the massive CAP budget and what the US spends on similar
 
Incorrect, farm budgets are not for farmers, they are solely for consumers so food is cheap for them. Important differentiation.
How many farmers would be operating 2day without CAP supports or schemes?? FA in most sectors i think its fair to say and the "cheap food" argument is becoming less relevant with every reform of it since the McSharry years. It will soon be binned altogether when the likes of Ukraine joins and indeed I was only reading last week that the biggest paymasters into it like Germany want all links to production cut in the next round.
 
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How many farmers would be operating 2day without CAP supports or schemes?? FA in most sectors i think its fair to say and the "cheap food" argument is becoming less relevant with every reform of it since the McSharry years. It will soon be binned altogether when the likes of Ukraine joins and indeed I was only reading last week that the biggest paymasters into it like Germany want all links to production cut in the next round.

Fair comment, food is being sacrificed for a landscaped rural setting for urbanites.
 
Fair comment, food is being sacrificed for a landscaped rural setting for urbanites.
It should be possible to achieved adequate food production and protect the rural environment. Problem with the old CAP model is that it promoted over production, mass food waste and hit margins for agri commodities across the board. Something like 5 million farmers across the EU walked away from the industry in that time, so it could hardly be considered a success on that front ether
 
A telling article:

Don't see much in that thats specific to Organic production??(which doubled in consumption across the EU between 2015-20) - its been a turbulent last 2 years in terms of prices and consumption levels for most agri sectors. Its going to be a hairy ride for all when the new CAP comes up for negotiation in a few years with Ukrainian membership on the table etc. so nobody should feel too smug about their own prospects going forward.
 
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