best dairy breed

[jcb411abuser]

was wondering if anyone had any experiences with dairy breeds other than holstein, at home we will have round 180 holsteins milking over the summer months, milk yield is what most would consider poor 6500ltrs average(if an mri did this people would say she is just a suckler) on round 2-2.5 tonnes of meal per cow. health is extremely poor, herd is being replaced at a rate of >30% per year, we just have enough heifers to keep stationary, we have now bulled with rotbunt and fleckvieh(AI), just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on performance with either of these breeds or any other dairy breed, because we don't quite know what to expect. At the min we just want a healthy fertile cow that produces the same as our holstein and will last to the fourth calf.

 

[recycled]

ayrshire .
couldnt give you figures but theres a lot of potential there they not been ruined by farmers trying to breed a masive cow that gives a lot of milk and forget about the rest of it , not yet anyway ,there trying there best to ruin them though all they pedagree boys that seem to think if its got 75% holstein in it but they can still call it an ayrshire

 

[jcb411abuser]

ayrshire .
couldnt give you figures but theres a lot of potential there they not been ruined by farmers trying to breed a masive cow that gives a lot of milk and forget about the rest of it , not yet anyway ,there trying there best to ruin them though all they pedagree boys that seem to think if its got 75% holstein in it but they can still call it an ayrshire

cousins have a couple of ayrshire x holstein, breeding must be similar seen a couple deformed calves round there, look all weakly and hair falling off them. put me off ayrshire tbh. but the purebred cows do look like they can produce, just with our weak holsteins kind of need a very strong cross first.

 

[headcase]

was wondering if anyone had any experiences with dairy breeds other than holstein, at home we will have round 180 holsteins milking over the summer months, milk yield is what most would consider poor 6500ltrs average(if an mri did this people would say she is just a suckler) on round 2-2.5 tonnes of meal per cow. health is extremely poor, herd is being replaced at a rate of >30% per year, we just have enough heifers to keep stationary, we have now bulled with rotbunt and fleckvieh(AI), just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on performance with either of these breeds or any other dairy breed, because we don't quite know what to expect. At the min we just want a healthy fertile cow that produces the same as our holstein and will last to the fourth calf.

dont take this wrong but start with herd health
it sounds like some drastic changes are needed:001_unsure::001_unsure:

 

[jcb411abuser]

dont take this wrong but start with herd health
it sounds like some drastic changes are needed:001_unsure::001_unsure:

we know, but no matter what we do they just won't stay healthy, if it's not feet, it's twisted stomachs or holding the cleanings or cysts on the ovaries or just a lack of a will to live(had a heifer last year just was stubborn and wouldn't get up to come in for he evening milking, got the vet out to see if it was anything serious, couldn't see anything, left for another call and called in on his way back at two o'clock in the morn and she was dead vet had no explanation), sometime you just have to blame the breed, we have 3 mri crosses and they just keep going, go in calf milk, calf, clean, go in calf, milk year in year out, you forget they are there.

 

[Larry David]

we know, but no matter what we do they just won't stay healthy, if it's not feet, it's twisted stomachs or holding the cleanings or cysts on the ovaries or just a lack of a will to live(had a heifer last year just was stubborn and wouldn't get up to come in for he evening milking, got the vet out to see if it was anything serious, couldn't see anything, left for another call and called in on his way back at two o'clock in the morn and she was dead vet had no explanation), sometime you just have to blame the breed, we have 3 mri crosses and they just keep going, go in calf milk, calf, clean, go in calf, milk year in year out, you forget they are there.

Held cleanings, Das, feet are a result of poor nutrition especially pre calving, get in a good nutritionist, test all the forage and get a concentrate and mineral to suit your farm. Feeding 2.5 ton for 6500 litres is crazy, how good is your grass and your silage? Whats in the meal, most of the standard dairy mixes are just filler.

Have you done tests for lepto, ibr, bvd and salmonella ? Have you done bloods for mineral status?
Having 3 good MRI out of 180 cows doesn’t mean much.

 

[jcb411abuser]

Held cleanings, Das, feet are a result of poor nutrition especially pre calving, get in a good nutritionist, test all the forage and get a concentrate and mineral to suit your farm. Feeding 2.5 ton for 6500 litres is crazy, how good is your grass and your silage? Whats in the meal, most of the standard dairy mixes are just filler.

Have you done tests for lepto, ibr, bvd and salmonella ? Have you done bloods for mineral status?
Having 3 good MRI out of 180 cows doesn’t mean much.

don't worry we've been looking into all that for years, cousins have keenan pace system and their cows feet are bad too, i milk for them some days so i get to see them as well. vets have been out doing all those tests, vaccinated every year for all of them aswell, we have changed the minerals this year right enough to a bolluse and seems to have helped a fair bit with the cleaning, but general health, feet and ability to thrive have only slightly improved, they are still too weak. we get a nutritionist to make up our own mix, and then but the straights out of the co-op. we are fed up, the modern holstein is just too hard to manage, it's not just us, this is a growing trend with the breed, if anyone would tell the truth, dead stock is hushed up and tidied away round a corner out of sight, scanning results are the most guarded secrets of them all, and milk yields rounded up, i've been milking in a fair few yards milking, and none are any much better than home.

 

[Larry David]

don't worry we've been looking into all that for years, cousins have keenan pace system and their cows feet are bad too, i milk for them some days so i get to see them as well. vets have been out doing all those tests, vaccinated every year for all of them aswell, we have changed the minerals this year right enough to a bolluse and seems to have helped a fair bit with the cleaning, but general health, feet and ability to thrive have only slightly improved, they are still too weak. we get a nutritionist to make up our own mix, and then but the straights out of the co-op. we are fed up, the modern holstein is just too hard to manage, it's not just us, this is a growing trend with the breed, if anyone would tell the truth, dead stock is hushed up and tidied away round a corner out of sight, scanning results are the most guarded secrets of them all, and milk yields rounded up, i've been milking in a fair few yards milking, and none are any much better than home.

What bulls have you been using in the past? What is your EBI? I’m doing 8000litres on 1.8 ton, mostly spring calving but milk all year round. The thing with boluses and other minerals is there not designed specifically for your farm. I get everything tested and use minerals to suit.
Feet is alot to do with the surfaces the cows walk on, if they standing in wet or dung, they will be lame.

Your yield for the meal your feeding is low, they are lads around here getting that from all grass. Have you a long grazing season.?

 

[jcb411abuser]

What bulls have you been using in the past? What is your EBI? I’m doing 8000litres on 1.8 ton, mostly spring calving but milk all year round. The thing with boluses and other minerals is there not designed specifically for your farm. I get everything tested and use minerals to suit.
Feet is alot to do with the surfaces the cows walk on, if they standing in wet or dung, they will be lame.

Your yield for the meal your feeding is low, they are lads around here getting that from all grass. Have you a long grazing season.?

grazing would be from march to late september but this year we kept the cows inside every night even during summer, let out to graze on good days, fed good silage milk is up this year but we aren't finished yet so don't know the average, our problem is partly down to management but for what we want from the cow i think that other breeds could be better options for us.

 

[Larry David]

grazing would be from march to late september but this year we kept the cows inside every night even during summer, let out to graze on good days, fed good silage milk is up this year but we aren't finished yet so don't know the average, our problem is partly down to management but for what we want from the cow i think that other breeds could be better options for us.

I disagree, for the indoor system you have, the Holstein is best. The guys crossbreeding have very low input systems where the Holstein can’t cope. The big Holstein is in her element, inside being fed silage on 2.5 ton. Having said that, you have to breed the right cows, there are loads of good fertility bulls available. There is good silage and there is rocket fuel, silage quality is very important when milking off it. lameness is going to be a problem when indoors all year.

I don’t know you, were at opposite ends of the country but I hate blaming the cow too much

 

[jcb411abuser]

I disagree, for the indoor system you have, the Holstein is best. The guys crossbreeding have very low input systems where the Holstein can’t cope. The big Holstein is in her element, inside being fed silage on 2.5 ton. Having said that, you have to breed the right cows, there are loads of good fertility bulls available. There is good silage and there is rocket fuel, silage quality is very important when milking off it. lameness is going to be a problem when indoors all year.

I don’t know you, were at opposite ends of the country but I hate blaming the cow too much

i know where you are coming from, but to breed in a "good" holstein you need to go down the AI route, and our cows just don't hold AI, we tried for the first service year before last, and less than 20 held, as you can imagine this was a disaster for the following spring. we then bought two rotbunt bulls, one to serve round 60 heifers and the other to serve the milking cows, the one with the cows put 150 in calf from the begining of may till the middle of august and the one with the heifers put all bar one in calf in the same period. show me a holstein bull that can do that without going off it's feet. no one is going to convince me again that you should sacrifice health, longevity, and fertility for production. as far as silage making is concerned have you seen the weather in ireland?? silage is different from one year to the next, we were lucky to have made good silage this year but what about next year?? why balance everything on a knife edge when you can have a cow that will work in both systems with less risk.

 

[Larry David]

i know where you are coming from, but to breed in a "good" holstein you need to go down the AI route, and our cows just don't hold AI, we tried for the first service year before last, and less than 20 held, as you can imagine this was a disaster for the following spring. we then bought two rotbunt bulls, one to serve round 60 heifers and the other to serve the milking cows, the one with the cows put 150 in calf from the begining of may till the middle of august and the one with the heifers put all bar one in calf in the same period. show me a holstein bull that can do that without going off it's feet. no one is going to convince me again that you should sacrifice health, longevity, and fertility for production. as far as silage making is concerned have you seen the weather in ireland?? silage is different from one year to the next, we were lucky to have made good silage this year but what about next year?? why balance everything on a knife edge when you can have a cow that will work in both systems with less risk.

Conception is conception, whether it be AI or stock bull. The only difference is heat detection, timing and good technique . One bull to 150 cows is a disaster waiting to happen if he goes infertile, you need a team of bulls on rotation for big herds. Also your putting all you eggs in one basket using one bull in terms of genetics, its a massive gamble IMO
How good is your housing? It becomes more important when indoors all year that the shed is right, big cubicles, plenty of clean water, non slippy floors, plenty of feed face.etc

I know what you mean in not sacrificing health traits for production but for your system, your yield is low. Is there any maize or wholecrop in your area, I have maize and I think its great.

 

[jcb411abuser]

Conception is conception, whether it be AI or stock bull. The only difference is heat detection, timing and good technique . One bull to 150 cows is a disaster waiting to happen if he goes infertile, you need a team of bulls on rotation for big herds. Also your putting all you eggs in one basket using one bull in terms of genetics, its a massive gamble IMO
How good is your housing? It becomes more important when indoors all year that the shed is right, big cubicles, plenty of clean water, non slippy floors, plenty of feed face.etc

I know what you mean in not sacrificing health traits for production but for your system, your yield is low. Is there any maize or wholecrop in your area, I have maize and I think its great.

maize would not work up here in donegal too cold and wet at that the time it's harvested alot of wholecrop is harvested though, conception may be conception, if you have an infertile cow, and a straw with lazy sperm it's not going to work, the rotbunt bulls were very fertile, and when using holstein bulls in the past we had SIX bulls with the cows, and three with the heifers, it was ridiculous, all the bulls went off their feet. too much genetics in a single generation of cows and you run the risk of running out of suitable genetics, unless you AI which as i said before doesn't work for us as the cows are infertile to start off with. I believe we need to build a good base cow first and then breed in high productivity over time, first we need a cow that will give four calves(you should average two heifer calves per cow) on average so we can choose the best heifers to breed, instead of having to use everything to keep numbers up.

 

[Larry David]

too much genetics in a single generation of cows and you run the risk of running out of suitable genetics, unless you AI which as i said before doesn't work for us as the cows are infertile to start off with.

Ridiculous thing to say, there is always an outcross, use Oman sons, Ramos sons, Durham sons, Shottle, Goldwyn, Boliver, Outside, Lancalot, Gibor or Bolton sons + alot more and then you still have the British Frisians and the NZ ones.

If the cows are so infertile how do you have 60 heifers to breed from 150cows? How do you know the sperm in the straw is lazy? AI works on a lot of farms, its a weak excuse to say the straw has lazy sperm

If yours cows now are so infertile and unhealthy now, why breed replacement from them?

I’m not having a go, you seem set in your ways and I’m just giving a honest opinion

 

[jcb411abuser]

Ridiculous thing to say, there is always an outcross, use Oman sons, Ramos sons, Durham sons, Shottle, Goldwyn, Boliver, Outside, Lancalot, Gibor or Bolton sons + alot more and then you still have the British Frisians and the NZ ones.

If the cows are so infertile how do you have 60 heifers to breed from 150cows? How do you know the sperm in the straw is lazy? AI works on a lot of farms, its a weak excuse to say the straw has lazy sperm

If yours cows now are so infertile and unhealthy now, why breed replacement from them?

I’m not having a go, you seem set in your ways and I’m just giving a honest opinion

there were over a hundred and eighty cows milking the year before, was bout hundred and seventy the year we bulled with the rotbunts, twenty or more didnt go in calf, kept them over and bulled them at the backend, trying to keep numbers up. the fertility we are breeding into them with the rotbunt and then the fleckvieh cross should be enough if the bull's fertility is anything to go by.

 

[Larry David]

there were over a hundred and eighty cows milking the year before, was bout hundred and seventy the year we bulled with the rotbunts, twenty or more didnt go in calf, kept them over and bulled them at the backend, trying to keep numbers up. the fertility we are breeding into them with the rotbunt and then the fleckvieh cross should be enough if the bull's fertility is anything to go by.

20 not incalf from 170 is an empty rate of 12%. Many farmers would take that. That tells me you don’t have a fertility problem. You say your herd health is poor but the problems you mentioned, DAs, held cleanings, lameness are mostly down to management. Will crossbreeding fix these problems?

There is no link between semen fertility ie SCR and daughter fertility? Fertile semen comes from healthy, fertile bulls. If daughter fertility was based on how randy a bull is, there would be no fertility problems anywhere.

 

[jcb411abuser]

20 not incalf from 170 is an empty rate of 12%. Many farmers would take that. That tells me you don’t have a fertility problem. You say your herd health is poor but the problems you mentioned, DAs, held cleanings, lameness are mostly down to management. Will crossbreeding fix these problems?

There is no link between semen fertility ie SCR and daughter fertility? Fertile semen comes from healthy, fertile bulls. If daughter fertility was based on how randy a bull is, there would be no fertility problems anywhere.

well if a bull is fertile good chance his father and mother were? and that 12% was from the rotbunt bull which we were very happy with, compared to holstein bulls that had empty rates of bout 35%. the breed is known for high fertility, it showed on our farm, and my uncles farm, where one of our bulls served 20 heifers and put them in calf in the first service in the same month, and a neighbours farm where he replaced a dud holstein and got 14/16 in calf in a fortnight. i havent experienced a holstein that had the same results. this is nothing to do with randiness, his sperm is just better, more lively, and that is genetic. If a bull is a dud he is a dud there is no way to feed him to make him more fertile.

 

[Larry David]

well if a bull is fertile good chance his father and mother were? and that 12% was from the rotbunt bull which we were very happy with, compared to holstein bulls that had empty rates of bout 35%. the breed is known for high fertility, it showed on our farm, and my uncles farm, where one of our bulls served 20 heifers and put them in calf in the first service in the same month, and a neighbours farm where he replaced a dud holstein and got 14/16 in calf in a fortnight. i havent experienced a holstein that had the same results. this is nothing to do with randiness, his sperm is just better, more lively, and that is genetic. If a bull is a dud he is a dud there is no way to feed him to make him more fertile.

That logic is all wrong. The bull provides the semen, that semen has to be right for the cow to go incalf. Dont tell me a Rotbund bull has more fertile semen than a Holstein all thing being equal. All it takes is 1 sperm to do the trick. A dud bull is a dud bull, it doesn’t have to be Holstein, bulls go through periods where they are firing blanks, that is where AI is great.

The management of bulls plays a big part in how well he works, if he isn’t big enought, feed right and his workload isn’t managed, he wont be fertile.

12% empty has nothing to do with using a rotbund bull, the Holstein cows was your problem in the opening post. So really your problem was infertile stock bulls. Which is it?

 

[MasseyMan]

was wondering if anyone had any experiences with dairy breeds other than holstein, at home we will have round 180 holsteins milking over the summer months, milk yield is what most would consider poor 6500ltrs average(if an mri did this people would say she is just a suckler) on round 2-2.5 tonnes of meal per cow. health is extremely poor, herd is being replaced at a rate of >30% per year, we just have enough heifers to keep stationary, we have now bulled with rotbunt and fleckvieh(AI), just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on performance with either of these breeds or any other dairy breed, because we don't quite know what to expect. At the min we just want a healthy fertile cow that produces the same as our holstein and will last to the fourth calf.

Wow........

 

[jcb411abuser]

Wow........

wow what?? :confused1:

 

[jcb411abuser]

That logic is all wrong. The bull provides the semen, that semen has to be right for the cow to go incalf. Dont tell me a Rotbund bull has more fertile semen than a Holstein all thing being equal. All it takes is 1 sperm to do the trick. A dud bull is a dud bull, it doesn’t have to be Holstein, bulls go through periods where they are firing blanks, that is where AI is great.

The management of bulls plays a big part in how well he works, if he isn’t big enought, feed right and his workload isn’t managed, he wont be fertile.

12% empty has nothing to do with using a rotbund bull, the Holstein cows was your problem in the opening post. So really your problem was infertile stock bulls. Which is it?

i'm trying to tell you it's both it's the breed, since we started going holstein things have went down hill, the 12% empty rate was achieved with the rotbunt bull and we were happy, that's why we are using them again, we were told that the fertility was high and we got the results we were told we would achieve, this had nothing to do with cow health as nothing was changed between using AI and going to the bull, diet, minerals, meal was all the same, and if a cow is always fertile and it's only the bull that is in question then why is it that you get repeats using AI, surely once served twice on the day she was spotted running she should go in calf if the semen is AI quality if fertility is never an issue with the cow?

 

[Larry David]

i'm trying to tell you it's both it's the breed, since we started going holstein things have went down hill, the 12% empty rate was achieved with the rotbunt bull and we were happy, that's why we are using them again, we were told that the fertility was high and we got the results we were told we would achieve, this had nothing to do with cow health as nothing was changed between using AI and going to the bull, diet, minerals, meal was all the same, and if a cow is always fertile and it's only the bull that is in question then why is it that you get repeats using AI, surely once served twice on the day she was spotted running she should go in calf if the semen is AI quality if fertility is never an issue with the cow?

The 12% empty rate has nothing to do with Rotbunt, your cows are the same, holstein!!

Look believe what you want. You started off saying your Holsteins cows were infertile and unhealthy. Now there fertile because you run a Rotbunt bull. Cannot you not see the point here.

Your logic is if the bull is fertile, his daughter will be fertile. That same logic means every Holstein cow will be fertile because the bull had to be fertile to produce that cow.

AI works, believe it or not, anecdotal evidence otherwise is only going to hold back your herd whatever breed you choose.

 

[jcb411abuser]

The 12% empty rate has nothing to do with Rotbunt, your cows are the same, holstein!!

Look believe what you want. You started off saying your Holsteins cows were infertile and unhealthy. Now there fertile because you run a Rotbunt bull. Cannot you not see the point here.

Your logic is if the bull is fertile, his daughter will be fertile. That same logic means every Holstein cow will be fertile because the bull had to be fertile to produce that cow.

AI works, believe it or not, anecdotal evidence otherwise is only going to hold back your herd whatever breed you choose.

"AI works" tell that to an empty tank, and 25000 euro down on milk production on the same month as the year before. to say that just because a bull got a cow in calf means he's fertile is nonsense, that's like saying just because it has hind legs that is has the same ability to put on muscle as any breed, fertility is the same why are AI bulls marked on fertility, because some are more fertile than others, same with cows, same with people, same with everything that breeds

 

[Larry David]

"AI works" tell that to an empty tank, and 25000 euro down on milk production on the same month as the year before. to say that just because a bull got a cow in calf means he's fertile is nonsense, that's like saying just because it has hind legs that is has the same ability to put on muscle as any breed, fertility is the same why are AI bulls marked on fertility, because some are more fertile than others, same with cows, same with people, same with everything that breeds

Show me evidence that semen fertility is linked to daughter fertility.

The fertility rating in AI bulls is based on how fertile his daughters are, the semen fertility rating is called SCR( sire conception rate) is how good that semen is.

Rotbunt cows may well be fertile but basing that on a fertile bull you have is nonsense. Saying Holstein cows are infertile because a Holstein stock bull is infertile is nonsense.

Its a broken record saying AI doesn’t work because it working on farms all around the world. Ask yourself why its not working on your farm?

 

[jcb411abuser]

Show me evidence that semen fertility is linked to daughter fertility.

The fertility rating in AI bulls is based on how fertile his daughters are, the semen fertility rating is called SCR( sire conception rate) is how good that semen is.

Rotbunt cows may well be fertile but basing that on a fertile bull you have is nonsense. Saying Holstein cows are infertile because a Holstein stock bull is infertile is nonsense.

Its a broken record saying AI doesn’t work because it working on farms all around the world. Ask yourself why its not working on your farm?

because our fertility is low!! this is what i have been saying. you genetics come from both you're father and mother, i carry my mothers genetics as will my daughters, who get it from me, passing it on to them, they will be carriers of whatever genetic material my sperm has, which is a mix of both my mother's and my fathers genetics. any other thing that reproduces sexually is the same, plants, insects, fish, all the same. otherwise there would be no genetic diversity, daughters would be exact copies of their mothers, and sons copies of their fathers.