Cover Crops 3.0

That just proves to me that sowing date is more important to anything else!
I'd say conditions at sowing or maybe even conditions until germination are most important. Too early into a dry seedbed doesn't work either
 
What inclusion of clover do most people use?
AFAIK, Hardysplicer seems to be the only one that uses some balança?

I mauled in some cc in Dec, into ground conditions that wheat wouldn’t grow, and the clover is bombing along, even after being submerged for nearly a fortnight. It struck me that it’d suit Irish conditions, especially since the mustard and phacelia etc rotted due to water.

* I’ll post a few pics if this rain ever stops.
 
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Clover absolutely mauled in at around Dec 10 last.
All the other varieties in the mix rotted except some ryegrass.
 

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What inclusion of clover do most people use?
AFAIK, Hardysplicer seems to be the only one that uses some balança?

I mauled in some cc in Dec, into ground conditions that wheat wouldn’t grow, and the clover is bombing along, even after being submerged for nearly a fortnight. It struck me that it’d suit Irish conditions, especially since the mustard and phacelia etc rotted due to water.

* I’ll post a few pics if this rain ever stops.
Yes i'm using Balansa clover a few years, rates low as seed is very small and its in a mix but this year im going to up the rate and reduce a few species in the mix.

bring out the spade, id say its a warren of roots
 
Yes i'm using Balansa clover a few years, rates low as seed is very small and its in a mix but this year im going to up the rate and reduce a few species in the mix.

bring out the spade, id say its a warren of roots
I gave up on Balansa because it’s too expensive and the seed is so small it kinda filters out to the bottom of the tank in the drill and then goes out rather quickly iykwim.
That’s squarrosum clover. The seed is large, about the size of the top of a match, and it needs to be planted at about 1cm deep so it mixes well with mustard etc.
It does really love water though.
 
I gave up on Balansa because it’s too expensive and the seed is so small it kinda filters out to the bottom of the tank in the drill and then goes out rather quickly iykwim.
That’s squarrosum clover. The seed is large, about the size of the top of a match, and it needs to be planted at about 1cm deep so it mixes well with mustard etc.
It does really love water though.
sounds like its made for Ireland
 
I'd better not start on that one. I've been trying to sow white clovers with spring rape with mixed success for a few years now. The varieties and their vigour are a constant debate here. Would love to find something wth early vigour and longevity to establish a near permanent understory. Glyp only knocks it back at low rates. Need something with a low growth habit and good ground cover. Anyone tried subterranean clover? Presume you'd be able to load an ifor williams @Sheebadog?
 
I'd better not start on that one. I've been trying to sow white clovers with spring rape with mixed success for a few years now. The varieties and their vigour are a constant debate here. Would love to find something wth early vigour and longevity to establish a near permanent understory. Glyp only knocks it back at low rates. Need something with a low growth habit and good ground cover. Anyone tried subterranean clover? Presume you'd be able to load an ifor williams @Sheebadog?
What system of planting? Plough/till, min till, scratch till, dd?
Land type?
Ph?
Straw disposal?
Organic manures?


Apologies for all the questions.
 
Either min till or dd. Driling 5 or so kg rape with 4 or so kg clover. Straw baled off. High ph calcium dominated soils with low mg. sometimes chicken poop sometimes no. Tried coated white clovers (crusader was the last one) . The varieties just don't seem to have the power or maybe heat to get going well and tbf theyre not for what I'm trying to do. Small bit does a savage amount of soil conditioning though. Suggestions welcome. (Dreams of weed supressing, n fixing perma cover and sighs)
 
Either min till or dd. Driling 5 or so kg rape with 4 or so kg clover. Straw baled off. High ph calcium dominated soils with low mg. sometimes chicken poop sometimes no. Tried coated white clovers (crusader was the last one) . The varieties just don't seem to have the power or maybe heat to get going well and tbf theyre not for what I'm trying to do. Small bit does a savage amount of soil conditioning though. Suggestions welcome. (Dreams of weed supressing, n fixing perma cover and sighs)

Sorry Ugo, more questions!


How deep is the land, ie, how far from rock?
Is the land heavy or light natured? Free draining?
How far north is the land?
Is the land worn from cropping?
Do you have livestock/bloodstock?
Do you have any neighboring dairy farmers?
 
Sorry Ugo, more questions!


How deep is the land, ie, how far from rock?
Is the land heavy or light natured? Free draining?
How far north is the land?
Is the land worn from cropping?
Do you have livestock/bloodstock?
Do you have any neighboring dairy farmers?
One place as good deep topsoil over limestone sand. Light land mostly. Other spot shallow over granite. Light also. Some of it cropping 60 years plus. No livestock bar occasional tack sheep. Several dairy men around. Slightly NE of carlow town. Here's my best efforts so far
 
One place as good deep topsoil over limestone sand. Light land mostly. Other spot shallow over granite. Light also. Some of it cropping 60 years plus. No livestock bar occasional tack sheep. Several dairy men around. Slightly NE of carlow town. Here's my best efforts so far

Would you consider lucerne in the deep limestone land?
I’ve been messing around with companion crops with a while, and I’ve no real success with clovers.
The lucerne, once established, is damn hard to kill. I’ve used up to 9L/ha of glyphosate on it to no avail. It will live happily underneath a cereal crop and not compete with it in any way. Once the crop is removed, the lucerne will grow away the finest. Before the next crop you can graze, bale, cut or mulch the lucerne, and plant another crop into it... even if you have weeds or volunteer cereals, you can spray it off with glyphosate, and do no harm to the lucerne. The most efficient way to remove lucerne is the plough.
The reason is asked about livestock is when establishing the lucerne it would need one full year on its own...the lucerne can be cut, bales and sold. A 22-24% protein forage is valuable...then after that first year, just ignore it. It’s excellent at fixing N and opening up the ground at depth. The roots will go down to 2m.
Seed is very expensive, around €15-20/kg, and planting at 15-18kg/ha, it becomes expensive to establish. However if interested I can organize HSS lucerne for substantially less than that.

Clovers as companion crops are, IMO, expensive and really tricky to get established in a beneficial way. The newer hybrid clovers are good but too expensive to be considered.

Cc crops, IMO, need to give significant and fast return on investment, otherwise why do it? I’m giving up on phacelia, mustard, radish etc, because the benefit doesn’t show as fast as squarrosum. Squarrosum is also by far the cheapest clover you can buy at around €2-2.5/kg. Squarrosum will nodulate N from before the rosette stage, loves water, and will put up with severe winter temps without any bother. It grows to about 4 feet high so you can bale and sell before planting your spring crop...or leave in place, mulch it and dd into the thatch. It’s quite deep rooting also.

There’s a friend of mine farming 850ha of organic tillage with 20yrs and I’ll run it by him on what to use with the shallow soils over granite.

I know that I’m probably going to stand on the toes of some posters here by dissing the usual cover crop mixes/varieties etc, but if you’re not getting an instant and quantifiable return for the investment and time it does become a little questionable.
 
I’ll investigate sourcing some of both clovers
In 2018 in the ‘drought’ many farmers failed to get seed from yourselves and competitors. I’m not laying any blame here because why would you stock it when people hadn’t even heard of it.
Teagasc should/must deck out a few young grads with shorts sandals and a notebook and send them to countries where cover/cash/inter cropping is well established...all they seem to do is gawp at what NZ is doing with grass (spread a bag!), come home and call it ‘new’ research and the jobs a good ‘un.
The very definition of lazy research.
 
Photo shows dryland maize from last year.

Cc of just squarrosum at 15kg/ha that was disced twice and 30t/ha of fresh cattle dung. 100kg/ha of Dap at sowing. No weed spray just scuffled once.
Last year was exceptional weather wise. Two severe heatwaves of 40*+ temps and it saw no water from the day it was planted t
 

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Photo shows dryland maize from last year.

Cc of just squarrosum at 15kg/ha that was disced twice and 30t/ha of fresh cattle dung. 100kg/ha of Dap at sowing. No weed spray just scuffled once.
Last year was exceptional weather wise. Two severe heatwaves of 40*+ temps and it saw no water from the day it was planted t
All top observations. Bi cropping @bogman style with barley peas here seems to really help with drought conditions. Something magic about plants that fix atmospheric n when planted with cereals.
 
Would you consider lucerne in the deep limestone land?
I’ve been messing around with companion crops with a while, and I’ve no real success with clovers.
The lucerne, once established, is damn hard to kill. I’ve used up to 9L/ha of glyphosate on it to no avail. It will live happily underneath a cereal crop and not compete with it in any way. Once the crop is removed, the lucerne will grow away the finest. Before the next crop you can graze, bale, cut or mulch the lucerne, and plant another crop into it... even if you have weeds or volunteer cereals, you can spray it off with glyphosate, and do no harm to the lucerne. The most efficient way to remove lucerne is the plough.
The reason is asked about livestock is when establishing the lucerne it would need one full year on its own...the lucerne can be cut, bales and sold. A 22-24% protein forage is valuable...then after that first year, just ignore it. It’s excellent at fixing N and opening up the ground at depth. The roots will go down to 2m.
Seed is very expensive, around €15-20/kg, and planting at 15-18kg/ha, it becomes expensive to establish. However if interested I can organize HSS lucerne for substantially less than that.

Clovers as companion crops are, IMO, expensive and really tricky to get established in a beneficial way. The newer hybrid clovers are good but too expensive to be considered.

Cc crops, IMO, need to give significant and fast return on investment, otherwise why do it? I’m giving up on phacelia, mustard, radish etc, because the benefit doesn’t show as fast as squarrosum. Squarrosum is also by far the cheapest clover you can buy at around €2-2.5/kg. Squarrosum will nodulate N from before the rosette stage, loves water, and will put up with severe winter temps without any bother. It grows to about 4 feet high so you can bale and sell before planting your spring crop...or leave in place, mulch it and dd into the thatch. It’s quite deep rooting also.

There’s a friend of mine farming 850ha of organic tillage with 20yrs and I’ll run it by him on what to use with the shallow soils over granite.

I know that I’m probably going to stand on the toes of some posters here by dissing the usual cover crop mixes/varieties etc, but if you’re not getting an instant and quantifiable return for the investment and time it does become a little questionable.
Many thanks! Some super info there.
 
Ah don't worry, we don't need them to be honest
I’d have to disagree.
It’s fair bad when a gobsheen like myself mentions a clover variety and nobody even heard of it...
With respect, you’ve good resources behind you, not everyone has that facility available to them.
 
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All top observations. Bi cropping @bogman style with barley peas here seems to really help with drought conditions. Something magic about plants that fix atmospheric n when planted with cereals.
Yes.
I’ve had great success with Tarbais beans intercropped with forage maize.
They’re a vining (Black) bean that grows up the maize stalk, pumps N into the maize, and leaves you with an overall protein from the crop of 12-14%. (Forage maize is usually 8-9% protein).
 
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